Get your abortions while they last.

305 replies on “Alito Confirmed”

  1. “Get your abortions while they last.”
    That is an example of bad taste and bigoted stereotyping.

  2. I wouldn’t trust Bush to pick his nose – but here we stand watching his decisions make our history.
    So, how soon ’til one of the Bush twins goes on a last minute day trip to Canada?

  3. hrhppg, contrary to my expectations with Debbie, your flailing cruelty above only confirms my usual opinion of you.

  4. So I’m the poster you’ve decided to attack today. Yawn!
    Your opinion doesn’t matter to me. Actually from what I read here – it doesn’t matter to a lot of people.

  5. A little OT.
    I often check out DemocraticUnderground.com on days in which conservatism is advanced.
    I am ashamed to admit it, but schadenfreude has it’s charms.
    So today the asylum inmates are most certainly rattling their cages, but I have to share one of the best posts I have ever read there.

  6. Honestly, we might be witnessing the end of democracy in America. People that voted for the republican party really do not know what you’ve gotten us into. I have the sense that all of our backs will be against the wall. At least I’ll have been on the right side of history.

  7. I’m more worried about the limits (or lack thereof) on presidential powers than about the abortion issue. The checks and balances between our branches of government are too important to allow them to be undermined.
    I hope I’m worrying for nothing, I really do.

  8. What should matter most to you today, hrhppg, is that you posted an appallingly cruel remark that you’re bound to regret tomorrow if you evince any remaining shreds of humanity. So stifle that yawn and get to praying..

  9. laser,
    aren’t you a bit over the top? this only of the 3 co-equal branches of the government and they don’t make laws.

  10. Actually, I think I’m spot on. I’ll bet money that Alito will give the president imperial powers to override the constitution and the laws of the united states. When this conservative government starts reneging on the promises that got them into office, then I’ll know I got it right.

  11. At least Senator Lautenberg and Senator Standin had the vision and excellence of mind to praise Alito while saying he was an extremist schmuck who was nonetheless a good person who hates women and minorities while being an upstanding man that would support convicting innocent people while having excellent credentials and training who would starve puppies just to force teenage girls to wear fur.
    What empty suits we have for senators.

  12. I think lautenberg was just being cordial. I think he voted not to confirm Alito and I think will vote NO when they get to the vote.

  13. um, laser, the vote is over. If you think it is the “end of democracy” perhaps you could be clearer on the moment of its ending?

  14. “I’ll bet money that Alito will give the president imperial powers to override the constitution and the laws of the united states.”
    Yup, right after he shoots dead the other justices, and declares himself “Super-Duper Supreme Justice”.
    Dude…Clear the haze, and the over simplified paranoia.

  15. I’m in agreement w/ you on the Presidential powers issue JessG. I fear Alito will be a rubber stamp for the Bush Administration – and America has three more long years to go of the Bush/Cheney crookedness.
    You know things are coming to a head when both Bob Barr and Al Gore can find common ground regarding the abuse of Executive Powers….
    So Bush considers the 1978 FISA Law to be “old law” and therefore discarded – Gosh, Georgie – The Constitutuion is 200 + years old – does that qualify as “old law” too ?? God save us from this dangerous moron

  16. But lasermike is awarded the 10 points for mentioning the “Overused Liberal Buzz Word Of The Day” (sponsored by George Soros). Yes, todays word was: “imperial”. The rest of you can try again for the prize tomorrow.

  17. telling me what I’ll regret and to start praying? I don’t think so, and I know I won’t regret my earlier post.
    Are you sure you won’t regret posting about what I’ll regret tomorrow? It is very close to a threat.
    Since you don’t know me, or my religion, or my shreds of humanity, you post was out of line, and if you mattered or your opinion mattered I would be offended.

  18. If there is such a thing as a “tad” tasteless, Deb, you’ve accomplished it with your line from the post.
    If not, I’d have to consider it downright disgusting. Guess it’s just a bit of your “blue” blood showing?

  19. If the word “imperial” doesn’t work for you there are others. The president claims he has power that supercedes the law of the land for reasons of national security. If that is not make George Walker Bush the Emperor, I don’t know what other title fits.

  20. I wouldn’t ever bother “threatening” you, hrhppg, because you’re not much of a threat to anything. Except, maybe, good taste. There, was that too much out of line for you?
    Nor do I have any interest in knowing more about you. But I think all folks who purport to Judeao-Christian charity might have properly been offended by your sodden attempt at “wit” above.

  21. “Time will tell.”
    You level of conviction is noteworthy.
    “It’s The End of Democracy&#153 in America. But, you know, I am willing to see how it pans out…”

  22. “Time will tell.”
    You level of conviction is noteworthy.
    “It’s The End of Democracy&#153 in America. But, you know, I am willing to see how it pans out…”

  23. lasermike,
    Bush is not claiming rights to contravene the Constitution. As the co-equal executive branch, he may indeed have the right to ignore FISA to the extent it interferes with the conduct of foreign affairs or war powers granted in Article II. The answers are not so cut and dried as to warrant your hysteria.
    Save your anger for true despots.

  24. Obviously I’m enough of something to have riled you up. Time after time you have something to say about my posts. If I so offend you then stop replying to my posts. This isn’t the first time I am asking you that!
    And you now claim to speak representing a group of people? Do ‘all folks who purport to Judeao-Christian charity’ know you speak for them? Because your caustic insults to posters day after day might not be their thing.

  25. Tony,
    The Article II does not give the president the authority to violate any other part of the constitution. Case law and other history notes is conclusive.

  26. Let me ask a question and hopefully I get an honest answer:
    When it was determined that President Bush went to members of Congress and told them that he would be using his executive powers to phonetap calls between the US and Afganistan and Iraq (and mind you some of those Congresional people were D’s and didn’t have a problem then) were you like me and said to yourself,
    “Self, you mean to say we weren’t doing that in the first place????”

  27. FISA is not part of the Constitution — it is a statute. When contrasted against authorized war powers, it is an unresolved question whether it does or should apply.
    Now, if Bush has authorized wiretaps of U.S. citizens on U.S. territory speaking to other U.S. citizens on U.S. territory, then by all means go for impeachment.

  28. The most interesting thing about the Alito process is that the politicization of the nomination process of justices is complete. The Democrats have successfully changed the rules. It is now permissible to vote against a nominee simply because you don’t think his future rulings will match your political ideology.
    This is probably the logical result of “bench legislation” – politics being applied to the Judiciary.
    I am not sure it is a bad thing, but the genie is certainly out of the bottle. For the Democrats to put liberals on the court or the Republicans to put conservatives on the court you’ll need a majority of the Senate. Nominees will no be measured on their jurisprudence alone, but by evidence of their political leanings.
    The rules have changed.

  29. C,
    Are you kidding me?!? First members of congress that knew about the wiretapping could not talk about it because the information on the wiretapping was classified. And Senator Rockefeller was literally brought to tears on the senator floor because he was unable to discuss the matter.

  30. hrhppg, you are quite “enough of something.” Which is why I, ah, “respond” to your posts. Although I’d say “comment on.” So I’m not going to stop merely because you don’t like it, you’ll have to come up with something better than that. Are you asking for mercy here?
    May I in turn ask you not to post so viciously, as re the Bush daughters? Would it work? Have you no shame about that one yet?

  31. This is not about politics, its about freedom and justice. Alito getting confirmed is the failure of the government to protect and preserve freedom and liberty.

  32. This is not about politics, its about freedom and justice. Alito getting confirmed is the failure of the government to protect and preserve freedom and liberty.
    That’s hysterical!
    … in every sense of the word.

  33. I would reply to the Baristanet in terms of the flip comment of abortion, but I think one of their own said it best:
    “I have always thought it was not in the mainstream of the American public to be extremely liberal on many issues. I think our party’s leaders — some of them — are overemphasizing the abortion issue.” — Former President Jimmy Carter.

  34. Legal arguments aside for the moment. Politically the Dems are running toward the cliff (again). What people will hear and what the GOP campaign ads will say is that republicans want to listen in on Bin Laden’s cell phone when he is calling an apartment at 57th and Lex and democrats don’t.
    Believe me, the administration will release a “juicy” recording on October 20th after the Democrats have spooled out enough “rope” around their collective necks.
    We need to credible parties in this country, you guys have *got* to get your political house in order, for the sake of the country.

  35. Cathar,
    Do worry your little head. If the Bush daughters want an abortion, they’ll get it. My question for you is what’s worse, the act or the hypocrisy.

  36. laser, that would be hard to tell since both are the manifest *imagination* of the same mind.

  37. Right of Center,
    The government wasn’t listen to Al Qaeda, they where listening to political opponents. In some cases they were listening to people within the republican party.

  38. “I think our party’s leaders — some of them — are overemphasizing the abortion issue.” — Former President Jimmy Carter.
    Bingo…I never thought I would be agreeing with anything that Jimy Carter said, but there you have it.
    I had a discussion about this very issue with someone the other day (you know who you are :-))
    While an important issue, abortion is NOT the only issue on the plate, people. There are many other pressing issues facing our nation today which need attention. Flame me all you want but I think the number 1 issue is the security of Americans both here and abroad.
    Then there are the issues of undocumented workers crossing our borders in droves; the health care/insurance crisis; the increase in violence against children; the devastation of NOLA; you get the idea.

  39. No, I’m not asking you for mercy – keep going, try to insult me as much as you want. I’ve already said your opinion doesn’t matter to me.
    Today your attacking me, tomorrow it will be another poster, it’s all dull, predictable and meaningless.

  40. You are mixing imagination with reality. To whom and to what they were “listening” to has not been released.

  41. Seems like a pretty quick ‘swear-in’. I guess ‘W’ has included some remarks about our new CJ in the SOU address 2nite.

  42. Check out the Bolton nomination. He was caught spying on phone conversations of other republicans.

  43. lasermike, you’re simply wrong. Those were international intercepts with Americans named in them.
    Bolton should be admired by all those who have ever nodded in appreciation at the phrase “speak truth to power,” since that is the very essence of what he does at the U.N.

  44. OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
    Alioto has been sworn in !!!!!!!
    The Sky is Falling!!
    THE SKY IS FALLING, I TELL YOU!!!
    The Constitution has just spontaneously erupted into FLAMES!!
    The Statue of Thomas Jefferson in the Jefferson MEMORIAL IS WEEPING REAL TEARS!!
    THERE IS NO HOPE FOR US —- NONE!!!
    WHATEVER SHALL WE DO???!!!!!

  45. OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
    Alioto has been sworn in !!!!!!!
    The Sky is Falling!!
    THE SKY IS FALLING, I TELL YOU!!!
    The Constitution has just spontaneously erupted into FLAMES!!
    The Statue of Thomas Jefferson in the Jefferson MEMORIAL IS WEEPING REAL TEARS!!
    THERE IS NO HOPE FOR US —- NONE!!!
    WHATEVER SHALL WE DO???!!!!!

  46. OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
    Alioto has been sworn in !!!!!!!
    The Sky is Falling!!
    THE SKY IS FALLING, I TELL YOU!!!
    The Constitution has just spontaneously erupted into FLAMES!!
    The Statue of Thomas Jefferson in the Jefferson MEMORIAL IS WEEPING REAL TEARS!!
    THERE IS NO HOPE FOR US —- NONE!!!
    WHATEVER SHALL WE DO???!!!!!

  47. OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
    Alioto has been sworn in !!!!!!!
    The Sky is Falling!!
    THE SKY IS FALLING, I TELL YOU!!!
    The Constitution has just spontaneously erupted into FLAMES!!
    The Statue of Thomas Jefferson in the Jefferson MEMORIAL IS WEEPING REAL TEARS!!
    THERE IS NO HOPE FOR US —- NONE!!!
    WHATEVER SHALL WE DO???!!!!!

  48. Tony,
    Bolton is nuts and he’s at the heart of the domestic spying scandal. Its seems clear to me that the administration is use surveillance for political gain. Nixon would be proud or afraid. Depends on what end of the surveillance you’re on.

  49. Richard, why don’t you stop back at DU and check the progress of that thread?
    Welcome to your new police state.

  50. I LOVE democraticunderground!!!!
    The Loons there are just sooooo entertaining!
    MrsGrumpy never fails to amuse.
    And Will Pitt? His ravings should serve as a warning to the dangers of too much alcohol consumption. (Hey Will — did you “Ty” one on last night??))

  51. Whatever shall i do? I guess it all start with money. Maybe I should just make the highest campaign contribution I can. Start a PAC. Build up a war chest. Maybe talk to some beltway friends about getting an office. Start hanging around Yale and Harvard and get a few organizations together. Work, scheme, and plot for the next 70 years and undo this mess for another.

  52. Ah, Mazie, always charming…
    A little reading from Democratic Underground:
    “Mazie Gordon 01:30 PM
    56. DU Mods – this is one of the FR trolls
    https://www.baristanetnew.wpengine.com/barista/2006/01/alito_confirm
    About halfway down, posted by “Right of Center”, links to DU & this thread.
    This guy is a freeper that posts incessant right wing talking points to this NJ blog. He’s giggling like the pussified little girl that he is.
    Richard, if you’re reading this – you’ve been outed, asswipe.
    Just Me
    01:34 PM
    Response to Reply #56
    57. Welcome to DU, Mazie!!!!
    What a great post!
    Mazie Gordon
    01:42 PM
    Response to Reply #57
    61. Thanks Just Me
    I’ve been hanging around DU a long time, reading more than posting.
    Oh, Richard – if you’re still on this thread – you’re still an asswipe.”
    ————–
    so, guys if that link to barista stays in the “active threads” prepare for the DU onslaught.

  53. Bolton’s nuts because? Because his respect for the UN is diminished by its coddling of cronies and evildoers ’round the world? Because he dares to call countries on their antisemitism? Because of the wacky mustache?
    Sorry, lasermike, your credibility has now diminished to an unmeasurable point: first you tell us that enhanced policing won’t diminish crime, then you screech that Alito’s confirmation is the end of democracy as we know it and now you spew forth with conspiratorial hoo-hah about Bolton somehow heading a Nixonian power grab through spying.
    If you framed your arguments a little more reasonably, you would get a lot more traction.
    If you’re really concerned about jackboots coming up your front steps, maybe you should come out in favor of strong gun rights!

  54. p.s. I am not sure what she means by “outed” I take it she thinks I was posting at DU? Please, you have to join DU to post and you have to *donate money* to join. Uh….no.

  55. The entire world is going to Hell. Republicans are evil!!! A woman’s right to choose is under attack. We’re moving backyards people.

  56. Seriously Laser, you are right on the mark, you should start a PAC.
    In fact in some ways, everyone should. Political action through fundraising satisfies both the cynics and the optomists.
    When politicians see PACs they see what they need, Money and Votes. So it really is the power of the people.
    Let’s put it this way, a smalltown PAC can knock out a high powered corporation’s PAC anyday of the week. As long as that small town PAC can demonstrate the fundraising and political mobilizing skills that a corporate pac can. I see it happen every day I go to work. In fact, I have helped both. And been on the losing side while representing a big company’s PAC. As long as they can go toe to toe with them on mobilization, they can win, because at the end of the day, the politico has to choose, money or votes — which is more important. If they like being in office, it’s gonna be votes. But a little money goes a long way.

  57. You go, Debbie! Not tasteless at all! The stakes are high. As soon as abortion gets axed, their coming for your contraceptives. Goodbye checks and balances, hello government by the corporations for the corporations. Say goodbye to federal environmmental controls, say goodbye to the rights of citizens to sue, say goodbye to labor laws. The era of the little guy is over! All hail the King!
    ROC–have you already forgotten the matter of Harriet Miers (Myers?). Its the conservatives who run the “wrong” nominee off the road without even the dignity of a hearing, let alone an up or down vote. Talk about “changing the rules”.
    Any self-respecting Republican of the classic mold (small government, personal responsibilty, fiscal moderation, blah, blah) should be seriously pissed off by now. Your President lies to you with impunity almost everyday and you are going to give him a pass. Why?
    The political hacks in this Administration aren’t going to keep you safe. Ask the people in Louisianna and Alabama if Georgie kept them safe. He sat in the sit room with the weather service and was told that the levys would be breached. And then tried to pretend that no one could have imagined it. Lies, people. No other word for it. Where’s your outrage?

  58. HEY DUmmies —
    Keep up the loony work!
    Your entertainment value is incomparable!
    No where else on the Web is it possible to get — for free — such entertainment!
    Drama, Comedy, Tragedy, and pathos (or should I say “pathetic”??) — It’s all there!!
    By the way, if you contribute money to $kinner, why don’t you ask him what he does with it?? It’s just amazing that the servers always seem to “overload” at crucial times.
    None of the other websites seems to have that problem.

  59. There are attacks on a woman’s right to choose:
    — to drive an SUV
    — to smoke
    — to carry a pistol in her bag
    — to buy freakin’ Sudafed
    — to call overseas jihadis in private
    — to have silicone implants
    — to live in her house that a powerful developer wants
    — to not support political activities of her union
    — to have her fetus terminated
    Dayum!

  60. Dems-Libs-pinkos-tree huggers-UN sympathizers-Hollywood teat-suckers et al:…Chuck Schumer said when Roberts and Alito were nominated that they were outside of the ‘mainstream’. Please define for me who makes up Schumer’s mainstream?.

  61. Iceman, you look better if you leave the labeling to those who see “Freepers” in every thread and “lies” in every mistake.

  62. Iceman–
    the Democratic Senators in the US congress received over 2,900,000 more votes than the Republicans. This idea that a plurality of the Senators represent a majority of the people is crap. Frankly, at this point, the Democrats in this country are dealing with a little matter called “taxation without representation” in the federal government. The blue states subsidize red states and we don’t even get a seat at the table. And in addition we have to watch you guys run us into the ground.

  63. Have to agree Ice.
    Personally I have as much disdain for Free Republic as Democratic Underground. Both veritable hives of cognitive dissonance. (entertaining, no doubt, a little scarry too.)
    I think that if Marxist revolution or coup by militaristic junta ever come to America it will start at DU and FR respectively.

  64. So, cheaplazymom, wouldn’t a solution for that to have less federal taxation & redistribution? Wouldn’t a federalist approach with relatively stronger states help handle your concerns?
    In other words, let Kansas be Kansas and let New Jersey be New Jersey.

  65. Marylou obviously meant backwards….. Alito will take this country in the wrong direction. This is already a mans world… Next you are going to take our rights to vote and have an education!!! Are you people mad!!!

  66. Cheaplazy,
    I’d recommend the “Federalist Papers” on that one. The US Senate was never meant to represent a majority of the American People. That’s the whole point!

  67. “Next you are going to take our rights to vote and have an education!!! Are you people mad!!!”
    I think you’re confusing the US with one of the tin horn dictatorships we’re fighting against.

  68. thank you ROC…the dems seem to miss the point in the senate. their job is advise and consent…not lawmaking. BTW, has Ted stopped his rant yet…and when were our civil rights abrogated anyway?
    Now let me get back to cleaning my musket.

  69. Heidi,
    She did? What a relief! You don’t know the panic around my house with ropes stretched athwart the shrubbery and staked in to the ground.
    Thanks!

  70. actually, i think you are confused… Bush has led us into war, spied on our own citizens..etc… I am not condoning what is going on over there, but by no means am I gonna start calling them names… maybe you should re-evaluate yourself and your beliefs!!!

  71. “Frankly, at this point, the Democrats in this country are dealing with a little matter called “taxation without representation” in the federal government. The blue states subsidize red states and we don’t even get a seat at the table.”
    Hoisted on their own petard!

  72. I love the name, Democratic Underground. Why do they think they need to go underground? I mean, the Weather Underground, I can see. But just what are those Dems up to?

  73. Indeed, Heidi,
    Bush has led us into war. National leaders sometimes do that. Our government has “spied” on citizens since the creation of the Republic — the trenchant question is whether it has been done in a constitutionally permissible way (and, if not, what the remedy should be). You won’t arrive at an answer to that question using exclamation points alone, even !!! three at a time!!!

  74. Appletony–
    I guess. That’s basically where we are heading. But I do like the notion of shared resources and shared civic values. Each state is not an island (except for the ones that are…) lousy air cannot be stopped at the border, neither can semi automatic weapons. As a nation we are only as strong as our weakest state. Besides, if things get really bad in one state — pollution, lousy schools, crime, unemployment–they’ll start heading to New Jersy or Massachussetts where sensible liberal minded folk care about things like access to health care, family-planning, strong public schools and an open and inclusive civic dialogue.
    I am deeply offended by a President who will not speak to all of his fellow countrymen, who limits his audiences only to those who blindly support him, whose secret service “escorts” veterans and school teachers from “town hall” meetings because they disagree with him. I have a little problem with a clause being inserted into the Patriot Act that makes “disruption” of a Presidential event a terrorist activity and a federal crime. So much for civic dialogue during the Bush reign.

  75. Ice,
    actually my point was that contrary to what Cheaplazy desires, the US Senate was designed *precisely* to *thwart* (if necessary) the will of majorities of Americans. It’s a “check and balance” *against* mob-rule.
    Such beauty our system possess if only it were universally recognized and understood.

  76. Tony,
    Your view of the world is a nothing but a landscape of nails because the only tool in your tool box is a hammer. Let me open your eyes, giving the president more power will not make you safer, will not stop the bombs from coming, and will not make you free. And a cop on every corner will not make crime go away. A sucker is born every minute and thats you. The only consolation is that given enough time, I’ll be able to pull the wool over your eyes.

  77. Does the DU sight have an online store to purchase chuckie schumer bobble head dolls?…chuckie baby…chuckie baby….gong…gong

  78. No, Ice I don’t think so.
    But “We’re moving backyards people.” would make a great T-shirt, no?

  79. HRH-
    I think it is wrong to malign women because of who their father is, whether it’s Amy Carter, Chelsea Clinton, Ron Reagan, jr, Mary Cheney, or Barbara & Jenna. That said, I think it’s a pretty minor sin.
    More to the point, it’s irrelevant. The prez gives you plenty of fodder, why go after the innocent?
    Mazie & LaserMike:
    People like you are a much bigger threat to the Democratic Party (and democracy in America) than ROCâ„¢.

  80. lasermike,
    Honestly, your post made no sense. I’m not advocating giving the president more power. Cops do stop crime (why have ’em otherwise). You got the “wool over the eyes” saying bass ackwards — but it does reveal your goal.

  81. Hey Appletony, I go to the range and if you think your gun protects your rights you’re crazy. (Heck, if you think your gun protects you at all, your head isn’t screwed on straight.) The government has so much power, control, and technology your little peeshooter is as good as a bow and arrow.
    Like a said, when all you have is a hammer, all the world is a nail.

  82. RoC,
    I give you credit for being an intelligent person, but you need to separate Marxist revolution and militaristic junta. As for marxist revolution, I don’t see that happening anytime in our future. But if you are concerned about a ‘militaristic junta’ look no further than recent events in this country to confirm your fears. We are by no means there yet, but we are certainly headed in that direction.
    I know, some of you are going to jump all over me for this, but consider:
    1. PATRIOT Act provisions that allow for warrantless searches, permanent imprisonment without charges, etc.
    2. No Child Left Behind Act that requires school receiving federal funding to provide students’ addresses and phone numbers to military recruiters.
    3. Presidentailly authorized and unaccountable NSA wiretapping of anyone the administration thinks is a threat (seriously, do you trust any politician that much?).
    4. A Pentagon counterintelligence program (CIFA) operating inside the U.S. and spying on, among others, Quaker antiwar activists.
    5. FBI and CIA data bases under development that assemble data from EVERYONE’s phone, travel, banking and medical records to look for evidence of ‘abnormal behavior’.
    6. We spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
    7. American corporations, some taken individually, and all taken collectively, comprise the world’s largest arms manufacturing block.
    8. We have the world’s largest per capita and total prison population.
    This is not a liberal/conservative, democrat/ republican issue. The justification for many of these programs might be fighting terrorism, but I think we all should be concerned with rapidly expanding federal power, particularly that being claimed by the executive. And remember, my right-wing friends, George Bush won’t be president forever, and someday you will have a Democrat, or someone whose positions you don’t agree with, in office. How will all of this look then?
    How will you feel when you decide its time to protest something that threatens the political agenda of those in power and they decide to have a look at you?

  83. this is too much fun…we need all of the Dems to take a breather and check their blood pressure…
    everyone with me now…”take a deep breath and out with the old and in with the new…repeat as necessary”
    Thankyou,
    Dr Feelgood

  84. I am so sad… Maybe I wll feel better when “We are moving backyards” is on a t-shirt and I have one…

  85. And remember, my right-wing friends, George Bush won’t be president forever, and someday you will have a Democrat, or someone whose positions you don’t agree with, in office
    But, Guido, if everything else you say points to “militaristic junta,” what makes you think that your prediction can come to pass?
    In other words, your own post reveals that you don’t really worry that our democracy is in danger, just that your party is out of power.
    Lasermike, what is my “hammer”? Do you even have any idea wtf you’re talking about?

  86. I am so sad… Maybe I will feel better when “We are moving backyards” is on a t-shirt and I have one…

  87. “wrong to malign women because of who their father is,”
    I agree with that Bob.
    However, my post came from their prior behavior of breaking the law. Under-age drinking may not be a hot button topic, but doing it in front of a secret service detail!!!!! More then once!!!!! When a pile of reporters follow you around!!!!!!
    Come on – they set themselves up.
    “”go after the innocent””
    Innocent! – yeah right. Not even our justice system uses the word innocent, it’s guilty or not guilty.

  88. Thanks mymanmisterc… But we cant leave Marylou out… she could make a lot of money off of this… 🙂

  89. Tony,
    Boy, you’re thick. You have tendency to support strategies where guns are involved. You’re militaristic. Solders, cops, your own hand gun. Do you see a trend?

  90. Nice try Iceman. See this is the problem. Mr. Santa presented you with a list of facts. Not scary theories. Facts. This is America today. Corporations set government policy. Fact. This administration has cut veterans benefits. Fact. The Radical right agenda includes the erosion of reproductive freedoms including contraception. Fact. This administration has gutted environmental regulations. Fact.
    You can not call yourself an environmentalist and support this president. You cannot call yourself a fiscal conservative and support this president. You can not say you support state’s rights and support this president. You can not be a feminist and support this president. You can not be serious about wanting to reduce abortions and support this president. You can not believe in the right for citizens to openly question their government and support this president. You can not be someone who argues for personal responsibility and support this president.
    I’m not really sure who is left. I guess just the people who “blindly support their president no matter how badly he messes up because I believe in loyalty to party above all else.”
    Stop talking ideology and start talking about the facts.

  91. That’s right Tony. Guns, soldiers, cops are all useless. Only incessant whining about a socialist paradise will save us. YOU FOOL!!!

  92. It’s “We’re moving backyards people.”
    The “people” bit is what makes it so funny!

  93. Stealth, the only solution you have is at the barrel of a gun. My background is in criminal justice and I’m pritty good shot. I understand the limitations and the destructive power of guns and the use force. I realized early on that force is not a solution. When you use force the best you can hope for is limited damage.

  94. Tony,
    Boy, you’re thick. You have tendency to support strategies where guns are involved. You’re militaristic. Solders, cops, your own hand gun. Do you see a trend?

    No, I don’t, because you are simply wrong about my motives. You are gratuitously hostile and short on substance. If you’ve bothered to read other threads where criminal justice issues are involved, you would see that I’m a softie except when it comes to crimes against persons. You claim to go to the range, but call me “militaristic.” I don’t own a gun, but defend the rights of law-abiding citizens to do so. The rhetoric from organized Democrats is what keeps pushing me to vote for anyone but Democrats.
    Cheaplazymom, you’re correct about so many of the things you list.
    You can, however, be an environmentalist without thinking that the Democrats offer good, realistic solutions for our energy needs.
    You can be a fiscal conservative and feel that the Democrats don’t offer any fiscally conservative (at least not since Tsongas, R.I.P.) alternative.
    You can support state’s rights and see the Democrats as power-hungry anti-federalists.
    You can believe in free speech and questioning your government while noticing that supposedly bipartisan campaign finance reforms simply offer another tool for incumbents to stay in power.
    You can believe in strong public schools while being for vouchers and against entrenched cronyism.
    I want some optimism, capitalism and appreciation for individual liberties out of the democrats. I want Ed Koch! I want JFK! I want principle, not just ranting.
    I don’t get it from either party, but I get a much stronger feeling of seriousness and openness to debate from the Republicans. It’s a shame, because “liberal” really did used to mean open-minded.

  95. HRH,
    c’mon, you wouldn’t care if she used a fake ID if she were just an average woman, and it’s certainly unrelated (unless you are saying that it is people who break the law who need abortions – which I suspect you don’t want to say here).
    Besides, using a fake ID to circumvent a “State” law that was extorted out of the states by the federal government is not immoral in my book. What’s really immoral is that you can be a full citizen of this country and not be able to buy alcohol (or even cigarettes in NJ) at 18.

  96. “my background is in criminal justice” could mean that your name is Yohnny Yohnson and you got your education during four years in Yale.

  97. cheaplazymom,
    how do u extrapolate from my posts that I blindly support the President?
    How did u determine that I am a part of the “radical right”
    “You can not believe in the right for citizens to openly question their government and support this president.” How can u make such a general statement and not call it blind ideology?
    where are all of your ‘facts’ to back up your ideologically baseless accusations?
    It appears that you and I have a differing view of what is going on in America. The scare tactics of the democratic party is their only viable strategy because the fountain of progressive ideas rain dry around 1967.

  98. Funny how what looks bad to you looks good to me.
    1. PATRIOT Act provisions that allow for warrantless searches.
    There is a long history of this. Clinton authorized a warrantless search on Aldrich Aimes and American citizen. Clinton was right to do so.
    …permanent imprisonment without charges, etc.
    Can you point out specifically what you mean?
    https://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR02975:
    2. No Child Left Behind Act that requires school receiving federal funding to provide students’ addresses and phone numbers to military recruiters.
    Good!
    3. Presidentailly authorized and unaccountable NSA wiretapping of anyone the administration thinks is a threat (seriously, do you trust any politician that much?).
    “thinks is a threat…” to national security. Good. That’s his job. Unaccountable? Congress can hold hearings and draw up articles of impeachment and remove him from office. What do you mean “unaccountable”?
    4. A Pentagon counterintelligence program (CIFA) operating inside the U.S. and spying on, among others, Quaker antiwar activists.
    Don’t know about this one, but if they are operating within the law, it’s fine by me.
    5. FBI and CIA data bases under development that assemble data from EVERYONE’s phone, travel, banking and medical records to look for evidence of ‘abnormal behavior’.
    Much like Mastercard does when it sells that behavioral data to Land’s End? If by “abnormal behavior” you mean such things as you recently arrived from Saudi Arabia, purchased precursors to Sarin, took flying lessons and rented a crop-duster, count me as “approving”.
    6. We spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
    I know, isn’t it great?
    7. American corporations, some taken individually, and all taken collectively, comprise the world’s largest arms manufacturing block.
    ! I know! Yes! (see #6)
    8. We have the world’s largest per capita and total prison population.
    And not coincidentally the most effective police and judicial system, the two things go hand in hand. Sounds good to me!

  99. ArchtypeDemocrat – It wasn’t that great a post the first time, by the fourth it was boring.
    hrhppg – I found your remark about the Bush twins on point. And wow you certainly managed to revv up Catheter today!
    Cheap&LazyMom – you’re on target! A friend received a mailing from Planned Parenthood about some chain drugstores (I think Wallmart was one but I’m not sure) that want their pharmacists to have the right to refuse to fill RX for birth control pills if it’s against their personal beliefs!!

  100. ROC,
    I think to myself, “who were these nazi’s.” and “What makes a guy get up in the morning and put an on arm band.” Well ROC, if the mustache fits wear it.
    And do you have any kids that can serve in the armed forces and can I send you the paper work.

  101. √¢‚Ǩ≈ìc’mon, you wouldn’t care if she used a fake ID if she were just an average woman, √¢‚Ǩ≈ì
    But they aren’t average – they are part of our first family, and with that comes responsibility as well as privilege. They represent us to the rest of the world, so I can hold them accountable for whatever stupid stunt lands them in the news.
    “people who break the law who need abortions”
    No, more like people who break the law, will break the law again. (Their cousin Naomi Bush is a prime example of this!) It’s fine to say but they are young, it was silly, it wasn’t a huge law, but they still opened the can of worms and they have to live with people making jokes, not that anything I say affects their world.
    √¢‚Ǩ≈ìWhat’s really immoral is that you can be a full citizen of this country and not be able to buy alcohol (or even cigarettes in NJ) at 18.√¢‚Ǩ¬ù
    I agree with you completely. You can be sent to fight in a war, but you can’t buy alcohol!

  102. You know laser, some of members of my family were killed by the Nazis. That a pretty offensive thing to say.

  103. You know laser, some of members of my family were killed by the Nazis. That’s a pretty offensive thing to say.

  104. Cheap & Lazy, great post – kudos
    They will never let facts get in way of their devotion to the Party and Dear Leader.
    Tony, you’re a phony.
    “You can, however, be an environmentalist without thinking that the Democrats offer good, realistic solutions for our energy needs.”
    The republican solution? Fire up the coal and nuclear plants, fuck clean air, ignore clean renewable energy sources, give massive tax credits to the oil & gas industry, tear up ANWAR so we can drive our SUV’s for a month or so.
    “You can be a fiscal conservative and feel that the Democrats don’t offer any fiscally conservative (at least not since Tsongas, R.I.P.) alternative”
    The Republican solution? Tax credits for the wealthy; borrow, borrow, borrow from the Chinese, triple the national debt – someone will pay for it later…I’ve got mine, screw the future of the economy.
    “You can support state’s rights and see the Democrats as power-hungry anti-federalists.”
    The republican solution? If a state seeks to, say, hold a recount in an election, we’ll send the feds in to stop it. If your community votes to allow assisted suicide, or medical marijuana, we’ll send the feds in to stop it. We’ll mandate huge, unfunded programs like NCLB and by god, you’d better comply and while you’re at it, let’s get the names of all the military aged kids. This administration has done more to consolidate power in the executive branch of the Federal government than any recent administration. And now he’s got another cheerleader for supreme executive power on the court.
    In other words, you’d be a Democrat if they legislated like Republicans. But you’ll keep on voting for repugs because you can’t be bothered by facts or truth.
    Somehow I think the party will survive without you.
    And Iceman? Please don’t PM me with your RW screed. I’ll delete it and report it as spam.
    “Catheter” – that’s good…

  105. jk, yes, there is a big issue with pharmacists and their personal beliefs. It’s even worse as there are communities where Wal-Mart is the only store with a pharmacy.
    Right now women on Welfare assistance DO NOT get birth control assistance, but men on Welfare DO get Viagra for free. Anyone else see an imbalance there?

  106. Mazie: It could have been worse. I could have emailed you the lyrics to “Teenage Enema Nurses in Bondage.”

  107. I would take that as a compliment, cheaplazymom!
    Cindy has more integrity in her fingernail than some people have in their entire loafing bodies!

  108. Appletony –
    You beat me to the punch in your response to:
    CheapLazyMom –
    You can not call yourself an environmentalist and support this president.
    on the environment, the Democrats offer nothing more then schemes designed mostly to enrich the trial lawyers and damage private property rights and US Sovereignty, sadly, that still gives them an edge, however small, over the Republicans.
    You cannot call yourself a fiscal conservative and support this president.
    True enough, but the Democrats propose far more spending, not less, so where’s the choice?
    You can not say you support state’s rights and support this president.
    Again, what’s the alternative? The Democrats? Don’t make me laugh!
    You can not be a feminist and support this president.
    True, if by “feminist” you mean someone who believes in tokenism and discrimination on the basis of gender.
    You can not be serious about wanting to reduce abortions and support this president.
    I support legal abortion, for adults, and for minors with parental consent, in the first three months of pregnancy, and later under certain circumstances, so this ain’t my issue, but here you’re just foaming at the mouth. If the president had his way, there would be a drastic reduction of abortions, there is no question about that.
    You can not believe in the right for citizens to openly question their government and support this president.
    Based on what, other than the ranting of you, and those of your ilk? People are not being locked-up because they question the government, if they were, we wouldn’t have enough jails just for the folks in Baristaville.
    You can not be someone who argues for personal responsibility and support this president.
    Well, I would agree, but again, what alternative is offered? You stand here in praise of the welfare/union/trial lawyer/quota party and you have the temerity to lecture anyoneon personal responsibility? What a pathetic joke.
    I’m not really sure who is left. I guess just the people who “blindly support their president no matter how badly he messes up because I believe in loyalty to party above all else.”
    You are so clueless, it’s really very sad. I support the president, even though I often disagree with him, because he is the president. Would I vote for him now? No, but as it happens, I did not vote for GWB in 2000 or 2004, nor have I ever voted for any Bush (note the capital). That said, I could not vote for John Kerry. As bad as GWB and the neocons are, they are still better than what the Democrats offer on most issues, in the rare circumstance that the Democrats actually offer anything.

  109. And speaking of Nazis, LaserMike should read up on the connection between the Nazi Party and Islamofascists.

  110. lasermike, your repulsive invocation of Naziism reflects poorly on you and your ideological colleagues. Shame on you. Just because you lose on intellect doesn’t mean that you should go calling people “Nazis” on a hometown forum.
    Stridency such as yours is killing dialogue in this country — how exactly is wanting recruiters to be able to call students on the phone, when we have an entirely voluntary military, being a “Nazi?” Why don’t you challenge ideas with ideas?
    Your comment, “And do you have any kids that can serve in the armed forces and can I send you the paper work” is particularly beneath contempt. If you hate the military and you hate policing, why don’t you just honestly come out and say so? If you feel that people can’t have opinions about the military without enlisting or sending their kids off to battle, how about other areas of governance? How come you get to comment on federal income taxes when you don’t pay any? Why should you have any say in environmental matters unless you’re self-sufficiently tilling the soil or living in a cave? Why do you get to comment on Nazis and the wrongfulness of taking out Saddam when you have never in your life lived under anything — anything approaching genuine despotism.
    This is a democratic republic founded on freedom of expression, yet you can’t bear to hear opposing ideas. Again, shame on you.

  111. “Cindy has more integrity in her fingernail than some people have in their entire loafing bodies!”
    Cindy is an attention whore.
    It is all about Cindy. Cindy is only concerned about herself.
    Some “integrity”.

  112. hrh,
    I wholeheartedly agree with you about the 18yr old issue. I fought against this in the late 60s and now it’s only worse. In NJ you have to be 19 to buy cigarettes on April 15, and you have to be 21 to drink BUT at 18 your mature enough to be trained to kill and pilot tanks and jets…the average age on our Aircraft carriers is 20yrs. We can send them off to foreign countries to kill but we don’t trust them to go around the corner and get a beer…puleeze, the hypocracy is idiocy.

  113. outinforce–
    No, I am not a grieving mother who lost her son in a war-of-choice. But if I were, I would hope to have the courage to stand up and demand accountability from the draft-dodgers who sent him there.
    ROC– that comment was beneath you. Show some humanity. Cindy Sheehan sacrificed her son. A little respect is due. Nobody in the White House has matched her family’s sacrifice for this war. And I don’t believe you have either. If nothing else that earns her the right to ask questions of her government.

  114. ROC,
    I am very sorry for your loss. Millions of people murdered. The holocaust is still with us and will be with us for thousands of years.
    But this administration is committing torture in secret prisons right now. And when I think of America today, it reminds me of Germany in the 20’s and 30’s. We should not commit the crimes that were committed against us.

  115. Cheap,
    Because someone’s son enlisted, served a tour, re-enlisted and died in his second tour does indeed mean he and his family deserve our respect. Especially in terms of their sacrifice.
    However she has entered the very public realm of politics and is now open to public opinion. He son’s bravery does not grant her special privilege or place he beyond reproach or derision.
    Besides, anyone who kisses Hugo Chavez (no matter how brave their offspring) gets called sleazy by me.

  116. Mazie, you’re as hateful and closed-minded as ever. When’s the last time you honestly entertained an opposing viewpoint? Have you lost all hope that those with whom you disagree might not be evil?
    It’s going to be another election season where the most virulent voices on the Dem side say to the majority of voters, “hey all you stupid, evil, ignorant, mindless robots — vote for us instead!” Methinks the tactic will fail again.

  117. “This is a democratic republic founded on freedom of expression, yet you can’t bear to hear opposing ideas. Again, shame on you.”
    Apple…well said. due to the lack of ideas and leadership in the democratic party, their only tactic to shout down.
    The words of cathar sum up Mazie’s rantings:
    “”virulent, mouth-frothing, perpetually wet-feathered lefties”.
    Oops, that is right out of the democratic playbook…sorry

  118. Honestly, The GOP has such structural problems right now that the Dems would take both houses if they just shut up. But (thankfully) they won’t.

  119. I hate crime committed against people. I hate torture in all its forms. And I hate war. I do not hate policing and the military. I support them and recognize the need for them.
    What I hate most of all is when people support and justify the crimes of the powerful.

  120. No laser you assume way too much. My only solution is not at the barrel of a gun (It’s one of them, but not the only one.) just as yours shouldn’t be a relentless stream of criticism of nearly everything. That is pretty much the whole problem of the Democratic Party at this point. Blinded by their hatred, obstructing at every turn, more interested in regaining power than doing what’s right for all. Sure you will talk a good game but a workable alternate plan? Nary a one, just a bunch of crying and morale boosting for the terrorists. If the Dems could get a candidate who actually had a plan, had more then a whining sound bite about how to handle things I would support that person. It’s not that Bush is so good, he ain’t, but your guys SUCK.
    It will soon be election time again and Bush shall be in retirement. The country won’t be a police state, (Geez, we heard this all before, during the Reagan years. Y’all need a new tune). Do you think you can come up with one quality candidate this time? The Iran dilemma looms large on the horizon, maybe if one of the Dem’s up and comers used some of their currently misused energy to do some thinking on that we could get somewhere without the guns. The Dems always push the U.N. as a solution. maybe one of them could actually get the U.N. to be what it is supposed to be, get them to step up because right now it’s a joke. They are more corrupt then ANY organization out there.
    Deeds, not words lasermike. that’s what people respect. I’m not bound to any person or party, just the best alternative in a sticky situation. Which BTW, leads me to your statement: “When you use force the best you can hope for is limited damage.” That may be so, but having more than just a background in criminal justice I would add this: The judicious use of force (force not being an absolute, firearms not being your only tool) at the right moment can very well prevent force, even a greater force, from being used against you or another. Yes damage, injury, or death may occur but you have some degree of control over that. Force can be a solution, sometimes the only one. Lying down and dying, or watching an innocent die are not options to me. You may understand your limits, and that of the guns you dabbled with at the range but what you also need to understand to survive is your opponents limitations. Sometimes he won’t be smart enough to stand there and listen to your lofty solutions for the problem at hand. Sometimes he’s going to take what he wants and go right through you. Understand that and maybe you will be more than just a pretty good shot, like I am.

  121. cheaplazymom —
    “No, I am not a grieving mother who lost her son in a war-of-choice. But if I were, I would hope to have the courage to stand up and demand accountability from the draft-dodgers who sent him there.”
    Casey Sheehan willingly enlisted. He was killed in wartime, and so he deserves our honor and respect.
    And you are quite correct to assert that anyone can demand accountability from elected officials.
    But that is not what Cindy is doing. She is an attention whore.

  122. This my party is the only party crud happens on both sides.
    “hey all you stupid, evil, ignorant, mindless robots — vote for us instead!”
    Isn’t that the exact message the Republican side tried to deliever after the Howard Dean rampage? After all, Dean was going to go door to door eating babies after that speech.
    “hey all you stupid, evil, ignorant, mindless robots — vote for us instead!” Didn’t Clinton say that on the Arsenio Hall show in 1992? In between Sax solos? After all Bush Senior was going to sell our kids drugs to raise gun money for the middle east.

  123. Stealth, your should remind your republican representatives not to commit felonies. You party is being marched right into jail. Your standing up for a bunch of crooks.
    Your explaination of violience and the use of force is a friggen fantasy.

  124. lasermike,
    Seriously, there is no valid comparison between America today and Germany as it slid into facism — people draw rhetorical parallels during heated debate, but, again, they do so without ever having really lived under despotism.
    Point of agreement: we should not torture, directly or by proxy — it is beneath us as a nation and we do not need to do it.
    I am astonished that so many of us are pretty much announcing to the Democrats that they could have our vote if they tempered their approach and exhibited less doom and gloom — yet the response is basically, “all you Bushbots don’t really mean it!”

  125. “Your explaination of violience and the use of force is a friggen fantasy.”
    Fantasy also describing your spelling at this point?
    No laser, having survived and even prevailed in a number of “use of force” encounters, I’m pretty comfortable with my methods.
    As to your first paragraph, yeah there are crooks in politics, all sides. You surprised by that? Lock em all up ( Oh wait, you guys are against that, right?) and bring in some fresh, talented blood.

  126. Anyway enough of this, it’s dinner time so to get back on topic: Congrats Sam Alito! A Jersey boy on the Supreme Court. From North Caldwell to boot. Woke up this morning and got myself a Writ of Certiorari!

  127. This thread is a proof of Godwin’s Law!
    “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”
    “…once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.”
    I think that would be a fine rule to instate here on Baristanet. Bring up the Nazis, lose your argument!

  128. CV –
    In the past, I have spent many an hour in groups that practice “Godwin’s Law”. While its heart is in the right place, it can be overdone. Comparisons to the Nazis can be appropriate when discussing governmental religious persecution, or the neo-Nazi movement. However, as used by lasermike earlier in this thread, it certainly was uncalled for.

  129. I love it when you guys show your true colors. Calling a woman who lost a son in battle a “sleazy whore” is charming. And I seem to recall a rousing defense of the Bush twins right to get drunk and great umbrage taken that anyone would drag them into the political debate. The poor, poor, dears. The contrast between them and Casey Sheehan is illuminating.
    I frankly fail to see how the death of volunteer troops is somehow their “choice”. They “chose” to go into the army. So, it is simply a lifestyle choice. This argument makes our armed forces suckers–If you would rather not die or be maimed then you shouldn’t enlist!– and I am offended. I think the president owes all our military families the truth, not platitudes. That is all Cindy Sheehan has asked for.
    Simple accountability. I thought you conservatives were all for that. But like most other things, you live in a world of double standards. One set of rules for yourself and your friends, another for everyone else. Now I am going to cleanse myself from this disgusting display by cleaning the cat box.

  130. RoC,
    I’M USING ALL CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE YOUR COMMENTS FROM MINE– IT’S NOT THE FORUM EQUIVALENT OF ME YELLING AT YOU OR ANYTHING.
    Funny how what looks bad to you looks good to me.
    1. PATRIOT Act provisions that allow for warrantless searches.
    There is a long history of this. Clinton authorized a warrantless search on Aldrich Aimes and American citizen. Clinton was right to do so.
    YOU’RE COMPARING THE WARANTLESS SEARCH OF ONE PERSON TO THE INSTITUTIONALIZING OF WARRANTLESS SEARCHES ON ANYBODY FOR ANY REASON WITHOUT ANY OVERSIGHT. THAT’S REALLY INACCURATE. BESIDES, IT WAS WRONG FOR CLINTON TO AUTHORIZE IT.
    …permanent imprisonment without charges, etc.
    Can you point out specifically what you mean?
    YEAH, THE PRESIDENT HAS ARGUED THAT HE CAN DECLARE ANYONE WHO HE SEES FIT AN ‘ENEMY COMBATANT’, AND DETAIN THEM INDEFINITELY W/O CHARGES BROUGHT OR LEGAL REPRESENTATION.
    https://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR02975:
    2. No Child Left Behind Act that requires school receiving federal funding to provide students’ addresses and phone numbers to military recruiters.
    Good! NO, THIS ISN’T SO GOOD. WHY DOES THE MILITARY GET SPECIAL ACCESS TO HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS? THERE OUGHT TO BE SOME FORM OF MANDATORY NATIONAL SERVICE ANYWAY WITH NON-MILITARY OPTIONS FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY WITHOUT HAVING TO KILL OR BE KILLED.
    3. Presidentailly authorized and unaccountable NSA wiretapping of anyone the administration thinks is a threat (seriously, do you trust any politician that much?).
    “thinks is a threat…” to national security. Good. That’s his job. Unaccountable? Congress can hold hearings and draw up articles of impeachment and remove him from office. What do you mean “unaccountable”?
    YOU ADDED ‘TO NATIONAL SECURITY’ AND CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT I WROTE. AND NO, IT’S NOT THE JOB OF THE PRESIDENT TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF WHO AND WHAT IS A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY. AND, IF HE IS TARGETING PEOPLE IN SECRET W/O CONGRESSIONAL OR JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT, HOW IS CONGRESS SUPPOSED TO BE AWARE OF IT AT ALL?
    4. A Pentagon counterintelligence program (CIFA) operating inside the U.S. and spying on, among others, Quaker antiwar activists.
    Don’t know about this one, but if they are operating within the law, it’s fine by me.
    THERE IS NO LAW SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZED THIS. IN FACT, SIMILAR PROGRAMS AT THE PENTAGON HAD BEEN SHUT DOWN WHEN CONGRESS BECAME AWARE OF THEM. APPARENTLY, THEY DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT CIFA.
    IT’S PRETTY SCARY THAT YOU WOULD THINK IT IS OK, FOR THE MILITARY TO BE CONDUCTING POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED OPERATIONS AGAINST AMERICAN CITIZENS ON AMERICAN SOIL. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A MILITARISTIC JUNTA.
    5. FBI and CIA data bases under development that assemble data from EVERYONE’s phone, travel, banking and medical records to look for evidence of ‘abnormal behavior’.
    Much like Mastercard does when it sells that behavioral data to Land’s End? If by “abnormal behavior” you mean such things as you recently arrived from Saudi Arabia, purchased precursors to Sarin, took flying lessons and rented a crop-duster, count me as “approving”.
    I EXPECT MY GOVERNMENT TO OPERATE AT A HIGHER LEVEL OF INTEGRITY AND CONSTITUTIONALITY THAT ANY CORPORATION.
    6. We spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
    I know, isn’t it great?
    NOT REALLY. I THINK IT WAS ALBERT EINSTEIN WHO SAID, ‘YOU CANNOT SIMULTANEOUSLY PREPARE FOR PEACE AND WAR’. YOU GONNA CALL HIM STUPID?
    WHY DO YOU THINK CHINA IS BUILDING UP ITS ARMED FORCES? BECAUSE WE ARE. WHY DO YOU THINK COUNTRIES LIKE N. KOREA AND IRAN ARE GOING AFTER THE BOMB? BECAUSE THEY SEE THAT THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE AMERICAN MILITARY OFF YOUR BACK TO TO GO NUCLEAR.
    7. American corporations, some taken individually, and all taken collectively, comprise the world’s largest arms manufacturing block.
    ! I know! Yes! (see #6)
    WE WILL CONTINUE TO REAP WHAT WE SOW.
    8. We have the world’s largest per capita and total prison population.
    And not coincidentally the most effective police and judicial system, the two things go hand in hand. Sounds good to me!
    WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT OUR SOCIETY? WITH ALL OF OUR WEALTH AND POWER, CAN’T WE DO BETTER?
    OH, AND JUST SO YOU KNOW i AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON CONCERNED ABOUT THIS FACIST PATRIOT ACT, CHECK OUT THIS LINK:
    https://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/news2/salon1.htm
    THE TITLE IS:
    Rebels with a cause
    GOP libertarians like New Hampshire Sen. John Sununu are fighting Bush — and their party — over the Patriot Act.

  131. I would much like, as I asked (I think) earlier, to know what exactly constitutes lasermike’s “background in law enforcement.” As a law enforcer? If so, I’ve honestly never read such wild-eyed “words” from a cop before, such surety that we were moving towards fascism. Or is said background in something more likely, like tenure as a Legal Aid attorney?
    And hrhppg, and anyone who agrees with her rotten little post about the Bush daughters, you’re still a sniveller who took refuge in vaginally tinged rhetoric today. For which, yep, you really should be ashamed. To judge from your posts, of course, shame is something you lack.
    Another one of my favorite posters right above (as I write this) praises CIndy Sheehan. Who, let us remember, is now hugging Hugo Chavez with such pals as Medea Benjamin and claiming she’s next running for the Senate in CA. Charming woman, but her time on the dais should be long over.
    Cheaplazymom, I hardly expect you to understand, but to typify life in any branch of the service as merely a “lifestyle choice,” as if it’s the same as you opting for gas heat over electricity, shows you understand neither the occasional demands of patriotism (via military service) or even the necessity of, say WWII. It’s sad you’re this wild-eyed, but there you go again, nonetheless. Do you honestly think that your average Marine – dedicated, capable and well-trained – simply lives a slightly more khakied “lifestyle” than you do?

  132. The controversy involving the domestic spying issue isn’t simply that the Bush administration was wiretapping American telephone conversations. It’s that after they did that they neglected to present their evidence to the FISA court, which would then grant them a warrant to continue surveillance, or make them surrender the evidence!
    The argument that the administration presents (that they didn’t have time to get warrants) is wrong and intentionally misleading.
    – Jersey Perspective

  133. so, for the republicans/bushlickers, in your best and sweetest dreams about the good of all society, is this your idea of heaven? is this the best we can do? is more of the same going to make it any better? how do you want your kids to live? please, no cheap cracks–what kind of system do you want? what do bush, et al, do for the greater good? is this the model of american society? can I get a serious response? remember, no cracks. sell me on it. winner gets a prize

  134. “Mazie: It could have been worse. I could have emailed you the lyrics to “Teenage Enema Nurses in Bondage.”
    Martta, that’s so sweet – years ago, someone wrote a song for you. Tell me, do you still keep in touch?

  135. CLM,
    The fact that you can’t see a difference between people who are completely uninvolved in the political debate and a full time political activist speaks volumes about the quality of your arguments.

  136. Robert,
    As I have made pretty clear here, I am neither a Republican , nor a Bushlicker (note the capital), nevertheless, I think that even the most strident of Republicans here would acknowledge that they are far from happy with many aspects of our current political landscape.
    The problem is that there is no better (viable) alternative, as I said already, as bad as President Bush and the neocons are, the Democrats are worse still.

  137. Re the original thread caption way up above there, I find it interesting to note that the US has the highest teen pregancy rate in the industrialized world.
    Meanwhile studies show that teens who are taught only abstinence are far more likely to wind up pregnant than teens who are taught about contraception.
    Does it ever occur to the religious right that a little sex education will go a long way toward reducing the number of abortions even further? But no, sex ed just encourages immorality so we can’t have any of that.
    Good old cognitive dissonance, how would we survive without it?

  138. “I think that even the most strident of Republicans here would acknowledge that they are far from happy with many aspects of our current political landscape”.
    absolutely, the man in the white house doesn’t give me much confidence. But then I think that what would have happened if Gore or Kerry won and ugh, what a situation.

  139. Crank, based on my perusal of drugstores the world over, we are also the nation with the most available contraceptives. And yet your teen pregnancy statistic stands.
    Of course, in many countries (including, increasingly, European nations as a result of immigration patterns), young girls’ sexual stirrings are often harshly dealt with by their religious parents. Far more harshly than the “Christian right” does here. The application of the sha’ria can be such fun as a side effect of diversity, no?

  140. Ah cathar, we can always count on you to obfuscate the issue by pointing out that things are worse elsewhere. And you are correct, of course. Still, we live here, not there.
    And yes, the statistic stands. Some kids are probably more afraid of being caught at the drugstore than they are of pregnancy. Some others probably don’t think at all.
    Anyway I’d rather discuss cats. Perhaps one of the Baristas will start a feline thread one day.

  141. Crank,
    I’m sure that nationwide, the vast majority of teen pregnancies occur in students who have received some non-abstinence sex-ed, but to say that it was because of the sex-ed would also be flawed logic.
    I suspect that in reality, teen pregnancy has very little to do with sex-ed.
    Furthermore, like so many of the arguments offered by those on the left, your argument smacks of elitism. Those who oppose sex-ed usually do so for moral reasons. If I oppose random search-and-seizure, even if it means more criminals might elude the police, is that also “cognitive dissonance”? I’m sure we’d have we’d have far fewer deaths if ladders were permitted only to professionals, etc, etc…
    That said, I personally believe that a complete education of children must include sex education classes, beginning as early as possible, and going straight through high school.

  142. The comment about Sharia law is a red herring. The United States is a first world country. It should pursue health and education policies that reflect that.
    – Jersey Perspective

  143. Jack,
    We are also a free and democratic country, shouldn’t that be reflected as well? I don’t recall anything about sex-ed in the Constitution.

  144. “like so many arguments….. smacks of elitism” – more ad hominem arguments.
    And do you seriously mean to imply that those who fancy themselves moralists and seek to impose their vision of morality on everyone else aren’t also elitists?
    Next straw man please.

  145. Why would I answer a series of questions posed by someone who starts off “so, for the republicans/bushlickers”?
    And I suppose you ask “how do you want your kids to live?” because you imagine a “bushlicker” to be so alien (perhaps subhuman) that undoubtedly it can scarcely be imagined what *they* might want for *their* children.
    But here’s the thing Robert. In the way you ask your question (how I take it anyway) you prove yourself more the “alien” in your inability to imagine that I would want for my children precisely what you want for yours.

  146. I’ll just remind you all that abortions went down under Clinton and have gone up with Bush and his abstinence crew. If you seriously want to eliminate abortions, then you would support meaningful sex education, family planning initiatives, and free access to contraceptives. The religious right wants none of any of those things. So, Miss Martta, you better stock up on whatever birth control you use, because the religious fanatics that have hijacked the public health agenda won’t stop until every sexual union has the potential to create a live birth.
    This is the “morality” that we are all supposed to subscribe to. I for one, pine for the day when women had 10 or 12 children. When unwanted urchins ran like rats through the streets of America’s cities (nice cheap labor!! Its amazing what sorts of nasty jobs people will do if they are hungry enough!!). Private charities of course took care of these pathetic wretches. Life was cheap. Life was good!! I especially like that women had to choose which of their children to feed. Abstinence works! Ah, yes. Those were the good old days. And frankly clean air and public health initiatives are over rated. All that pollution and unsanitary conditions killed off lots of pesky, uncouth poor people. You didn’t need public schools because the poor were never going to amount to anything. What would be the point of an education when one’s life expectancy was under 50 years old. Women with 10 or 12 children don’t have time to read anyway!!! Come on. The progressive reforms of the last 150 years have been a serious waste of everybody’s time.

  147. No, there is nothing about sex-ed in the constitution.
    Schools are state institutions. It’s wrong for the federal government to award schools taxpayer money for classes that teach kids that protected sex is just as harmful as unprotected sex.
    – Jersey Perspective

  148. Iceman,
    Since you seem to be the possessor of some special crystal-ball type knowledge here, what exactly would have happened if Gore had won?
    Oh that’s right, I forgot,he did win.
    Hail to the Thief.

  149. oops. mangled code.
    cheaplazy,
    Where are you getting the “gone up” part?
    I am not sure how the president gets blame or credit for the abortion rate. But if you wan’t to see it that way, look at the chart. Who was president in 1975? 1980?
    Do you think the country has drifted more conservative or liberal since 1975? Does that change how you interpret your chart?

  150. guido,
    time for a civics lesson…the presidency is won when one candidate gets more electoral votes not the popular vote. we can discuss another time whether that process needs to be changed.

  151. Crank,
    If I said you were an asshole, that would be an ad hominem statement, even if it’s true.
    If I said your argument was somewhat elitist, because it is, and then proceed to illustrate why it is both elitist and flawed, that is not an ad hominem argument, that is just a good argument that you apparently can’t come up with a meaningful response to.
    And I never said they weren’t elitist.

  152. this just in…
    Sheehan will be in the Gallery tonight. (Great! I hope she gets lots of camera time.) Maybe she’ll make a spectacle of herself? Can we hope for that much?

  153. and you’re right, guido, i don’t know how gore would have reacted. but my guess is that after 9/11 he would have convened meetings with kofi, chirac,putin et al and then announced to the world that bin laden was sanctioned.
    I’m tired can we discuss PHT for awhile.

  154. Frankly, if you had said:
    Schools are state institutions. It’s wrong for the federal government to award schools taxpayer money for classes
    I would agree. There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says the feds should pay for schools. Schools are state institutions, why is the federal government giving any of them any money? The States should be paying for them, and the state legislatures (or their designees) should be determining what sort of education they should be providing.
    But you said:
    Schools are state institutions. It’s wrong for the federal government to award schools taxpayer money for classes that teach kids that protected sex is just as harmful as unprotected sex.”
    Why, because you say so? Don’t we live in a democracy, aren’t those folks elected? Yet somehow, your opinion counts more than that of elected officials?

  155. So– grieving mother who stands up and demands to know why her precious son had to die for a lie, thereby galvanizing the antiwar movement= “attention whore”?
    By the same token, I suppose Gandhi and M.L. King were “attention whores”, too.

  156. Cindy Sheehan is not at all sincere in asking her “questions” — Ghandi and MLK asked real questions about real wrongs. She is a harpy and a useful idiot (Lenin’s term, not mine) being used by power-hungry people.

  157. What utter nonsense– of course she is sincere and of course what she is denouncing are real wrongs.

  158. The biggest difference is obvious. MLK and Ghandi struggled for democracy so that millions of oppressed people could partake of its fruits. They accepted sacrifice as a necessary step in the struggle.
    Mama Sheehan want’s to abandon millions of Iraqis to civil war because she does not accept the sacrifice her son made.
    Pretty big difference.
    So, it seem she has been arrested unfurling a banner or something.

  159. You know what, ROC? Martin Luther King denounced the Vietnam war, and I have no doubt that were he alive today he would be at Cindy Sheehan’s side.
    And I have no doubt that someone like you would have reviled MLK for his stance on Vietnam, as well as his civil rights work.
    It’s easy to put such people on a pedestal now that they’re safely dead. Even George Bush does it.

  160. I’m sure you no problem pulling all manner of self-comforting and personal world-view-reaffirming imaginary words out of the mouths of others who do not agree with you. It is quite clear.

  161. How comforting it must be to “know” what MLK would do now. Rather like people who speak for God or Jesus, eh?

  162. Roe v. Wade will never, never be overturned, and I am weary of the Democratic party using the issue to polarize the American public for lack of a more concrete and viable party platform. But if the above remarks are any indication, it is working only too well.

  163. Substitute “Iraq” for Vietnam”–
    Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home, and dealt death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as one who loves America, to the leaders of our own nation: The great initiative in this war is ours; the initiative to stop it must be ours.
    This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words, and I quote:
    Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the hearts of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism.
    Unquote.
    If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately, the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horrible, clumsy, and deadly game we have decided to play. The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways. In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war.

  164. as much as you would like to substitute Iraq for Vietnam (or as much as you are unable to do anything but conflate them), they are not the same.

  165. The funny thing about the Vietnam comparison on the part of the hard left is that I am not sure you all aren’t getting exactly what you hope for from the American people. You all want us to substitute Iraq for Vietnam. But the thing is that lots of people think it was a mistake not to have won that conflict. American interests were harmed for decades after because we listened to the leftists and accepted defeat.
    I think a lot of people are accepting the comparison you offer and it helps them to stay the course.

  166. yes, latebloomer,let’s learn the lessons from vietnam, and like ROC says:
    “But the thing is that lots of people think it was a mistake not to have won that conflict. American interests were harmed for decades after because we listened to the leftists and accepted defeat.” we must substitute iraq for vietnam and make sure the ‘war on terrorism’ is won decisively and we don’t listen to the weak leftists, accept defeat and lose face in the world. we must fight and win our own battles…3000 innocent americans are owed that action.

  167. So we should go on murdering, pillaging, and conquering the world, so we can “save face” and show how big and bad we are.
    What an utter load of horse manure.
    Note to ROC– There was NO WAY we could have “won” in Vietnam other than setting a nuclear bomb there and committing the grossest act of genocide the world has ever seen. The people wanted us out,and eventually we were forced,out, tail between our legs, just as we deserved.
    This macho way of thinking has to die so that the world can live.

  168. Jeez Bob, how close can you come to calling me an asshole without coming right out & saying it? Weren’t you satisfied with elitist?
    Stating that you illustrated something doesn’t mean that you accomplished it. Feel free to try again.

  169. PS– Funny how the quickly support for ML King’s beliefs dissolves when confronted with his actual beliefs.

  170. ROC & Ice – I agree that it’s a mistake to compare Iraq & Nam too closely. I think there are some instructive parallels, though, particularly in the ways that both wars began with lies & delusions at the top levels of our government.
    Nam was generally viewed to be unwinnable by a succession of military leaders without massive bombing of the North (possibly nuclear), a step which most were loath to take, particularly with the spectre of Hiroshima still hanging over the world in those years.
    I also agree that the war on terrorism needs to be won. My questions have to do with our strategies & tactics. Former CIA director John McLaughlin says that “we have created a new generation of highly trained urban terrorists” in Iraq, with whom we, or someone, will have to deal for years to come. If what Georges Sada alleges is true, Saddam’s fabled WMD are now in the hands of terrorists, which is precisely what the whole adventure was supposed to prevent (I think that was the original of the 24 reasons for invading Iraq).
    I don’t think I harbor any illusions about the nature of our enemies. I continue to question whether we’re dealing with them effectively.

  171. “So we should go on murdering, pillaging, and conquering the world, so we can “save face” and show how big and bad we are.”
    come on latebloomer…u don’t even believe the crap you just wrote. we aren’t murdering, pillaging and conquering the world. we are fighting against a real enemy that wants the united states of america wiped off the earth. we don’t have plans for conquering or occupying countries for the sake of hegemony. we do our best not to kill innocents and train our troops accordingly. i hate that we have to fight but the ‘bullies’ of bin laden and the jihadists don’t understand a meeting where everyone stands arounds and sings kumbaya.
    I pray every night that bush will announce that we ‘won’ and that he will draw down the troops. but let’s not forget why we are fighting. it’s not about oil or bad intelligence about wmds…it’a about showing the terrorists that we will fight for our way of life.

  172. Iceman,
    Do me the courtesy of not offering my your half-baked ‘civics lesson’. Don’t insult me. Here are the facts, inconvenient as they may be to you:
    The Supreme Court superceded the Florida State Supreme Court and ordered that the recount be stopped before it was complete.
    Had the recount been allowed to continue, Gore would have won the popular vote in Florida, giving him a majority in the electoral college.
    Al Gore was elected president in 2000. Instead, Bush was installed by a Supreme Court with enough conservative votes to subvert the democratic process.
    In 2004 exit polls in Ohio showed Kerry leading with a comfortable margin. But strangley, he didn’t win. Exit polls are so reliable that they are used in 3rd world countries by election monitors to determine whether or not elections are fraudulent. A university study conducted by, I believe, an actuary, shortly after the election concluded that the odds of the exit polls being wrong in Ohio were more than 600 million to 1. I hope George Bush bought lottery tickets that day as well.
    The Conyers Report summarized the situation in Ohio:
    “We have found numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election, which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters. Cumulatively, these irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousand of votes and voters in Ohio, raise grave doubts regarding whether it can be said the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were chosen in a manner that conforms to Ohio law, let alone federal requirements and constitutional standards.”
    “With regards to our factual finding, in brief, we find that there were massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies in Ohio. In many cases these irregularities were caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior, much of it involving Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio.”
    As to what Gore might have done:
    The notion that any president would not have crafted a massive military, law enforcement and diplomatic response to 9/11 is laughable. But I am sure Gore would have finished the job in Afghanistan and I know we would not have invaded Iraq. The Bush family’s personal ties to the Saudi Royal family as well as our continued dependence on the oil they pump out of the sand have prevented the U.S. from effectively combating terrorism at one of its most virulent sources.
    We get attacked by 19 hijackers, 15 of whom are from Saudi Arabia. Not only did the president try to prevent the 9/11 commission from ever existing, but he refused to testify before it in public or under oath. Then, he redacted the portion of the report that dealt specifically with Saudi Arabia’s role in funding the terrorists who attacked us. Instead, he lied to us all and invaded Iraq.
    You’re right, Iceman, Gore would have reacted differently.

  173. crank,
    “I don’t think I harbor any illusions about the nature of our enemies. I continue to question whether we’re dealing with them effectively.”
    i couldn’t agree more. look, i empathize with latebloomer cause i want us to stop the bullshit and take the fight to the real enemy. we should never have gone into iraq but stayed in afghan to chase down al queda one by one. bush lied about our reason for fighting in iraq and wanted to hear only the intelligence that backed him premise. but like i said before it doesn’t change the fact that we are at war…with an elusive enemy who only wants to kill americans. the endless enigma is how to prosecute the war on terror without occupying countries.

  174. Exit polls are so reliable that they are used in 3rd world countries by election monitors to determine whether or not elections are fraudulent.
    Yeah, that’s why exit polls in Palestine showed Fatah winning for sure over Hamas.

  175. Guido,
    “Al Gore was elected president in 2000. Instead, Bush was installed by a Supreme Court with enough conservative votes to subvert the democratic process”…please spare us the tired old rhetoric. Gore lost.

  176. Wow. People will still debate the 2000 election? I am impressed. But isn’t is a waste of time? The guy giving the speech tonight was Bush. And he’ll give three more state of the union speeches. If you don’t like it all I see are 2 options. Start winning elections or start a revolution. But either way 2000 is *ancient* history. Who cares?
    Moving forward the people have a choice – a plan with plenty of challenges and certainly problems which is far from perfect or… no plan. Until the alternate has substance, it is all hot air as evaporable as Teddy Kennedy’s volatile breath.
    Both parties are fractured, but the Dems more so. Until either the Liberman wing or the Latebloomer wing is exorcised from the party, I just don’t seem the Dems having much coherence.
    Good luck…

  177. For the President to compare MLK’s march of freedom to his own shock-and- awe march of freedom is absolutely absurd. Will this administration ever understand that honesty starts with not twisting the language?

  178. Bob,
    I didn’t endorse federal money for schools that DO teach sex-ed either. The GOP Congress bullies school districts into teaching abstinence only education, which most people oppose, by essentially bribing them with federal aid. It’s not illegal or unconstitutional. It’s just wrong.
    – Jersey Perspective

  179. crank, I spoke to our nine cats. They all agree that a feline thread isn’t necessary here because, as we in feline-dominated households know, cats there are already the centers of attention.
    But they also pointed out that, while a cat’s life is always better here than elsewhere, it is particularly better compared to life in China and Taiwan.
    And to a cat’s life in Islamic countries, despite the Prophet’s own famous refusal to wake his sleeping cat during the hejira, so that he cut a piece from his own robe rather than disturb the puss.
    I also read someplace today that Cindy Sheehan is allergic to cats. Somehow that figures.

  180. >> i want us to stop the bullshit and take the fight to the real enemy. we should never have gone into iraq but stayed in afghan to chase down al queda one by one. bush lied about our reason for fighting in iraq and wanted to hear only the intelligence that backed him premise. but like i said before it doesn’t change the fact that we are at war…with an elusive enemy who only wants to kill americans. the endless enigma is how to prosecute the war on terror without occupying countries.

  181. Bob,
    I didn’t endorse federal money for schools that DO teach sex-ed either. The GOP Congress bullies school districts into teaching abstinence only education, which most people oppose, by essentially bribing them with federal aid. It’s not illegal or unconstitutional. It’s just wrong.
    – Jersey Perspective

  182. “2000 is ancient history. Who cares?”
    Why not ask the Jews if they still care about the Holocaust? Or ask the Palestinians if they still care about being evicted from their homes. Ancient history, right? You don’t forget about injustice, especially if it’s never been acknowledged or corrected.
    Let’s look at the major injustices in the USA, just in my typical boomer lifetime. JFK, young & optimistic, having just proposed all the major Civil Rights legislation, and having lately realized that Vietnam was a trap we should step back from – murdered. MLK, the greatest non-violent leader our nation has ever produced, on the brink of securing equality for all people of color – murdered. RFK, having just won the Democratic nomination, on his way to the Presidency, pledged to ending the Vietnam War – murdered. Then two stolen elections, the installation of a bungling incompetent illegitimate President, another tragic wasteful unnecessary war, with the catastrophe of global climate change awaiting us and our children later this century.
    Who cares? I do.

  183. So, Cindy Sheehan went ahead and got herself arrested once again. Now sit back and watch the lunatic fringe emerge from its collective asylum to come to her defense.
    She will never be happy unless she is playing the role of victim.

  184. buycopy,
    From that report it looks as if the government read on the internet about a protest where food was being handed out to defense contractors by protestors and “note” was taken of it in a file.
    Exactly what is so upsetting?

  185. She “got herself arrested” because she was wearing a T-shirt, mostly covered by a jacket, that listed the number of soldiers killed so far in a war based on lies.
    Free speech is not permitted in Bush’s presence.
    Add her name to the “victims” of history, such as Martin Luther King, who regularly got arrested in order to publicize their cause.

  186. Good for you Troubadour, one can only hope you’ll keep as many of your political persuasion preoccupied and distracted by the “holocaust” of 2000 as is possible.
    I wish you continued success.

  187. The State of the Union is not the place for political protest. In essence it is *not* all about her, as difficult as that may seem to some.

  188. Did anyone else see Cindy Sheehan’s email about her arrest?
    This, in part, is what she had to say, “This afternoon at the People’s State of the Union Address in DC where I was joined by Congresspersons Lynn Woolsey and John Conyers, Ann Wright, Malik Rahim and John Cavanagh, Lynn brought me a ticket to the State of the Union Address. At that time, I was wearing the shirt that said: 2245 Dead. How many more?
    After the PSOTU press conference, I was having second thoughts about going to the SOTU at the Capitol. I didn’t feel comfortable going. I knew George Bush would say things that would hurt me and anger me and I knew that I couldn’t disrupt the address because Lynn had given me the ticket and I didn’t want to be disruptive out of respect for her. I, in fact, had given the ticket to John Bruhns who is in Iraq Veterans Against the War. However, Lynn’s office had already called the media and everyone knew I was going to be there so I sucked it up and went.”
    Let me translate for you:
    “I had originally been given the ticket to the SOTU and had decided that I would not be able to get the attention I so desperately want. So I gave my ticket to a a veteran.
    “But then I decided on a way to get lots and lots and lots of attention because I found out the MEDIA knew that I had been given a ticket.
    “What a perfect opportunity to get the media to pay attention to MEEEEEEE!!!
    “So I went to the vet, got the ticket back, then changed from my blouse into a t-shirt (The t-shirt was size XL, so I had to “suck it up” in order to fit into it).
    “You may recall that my stunt at the White House when I got myself arrested attracted almost NO media attention.
    “I was sure I would be able to get lots and lots of media attention.
    “I’m such a media attention whore.”

  189. Did anyone else see Cindy Sheehan’s email about her arrest?
    This, in part, is what she had to say, “This afternoon at the People’s State of the Union Address in DC where I was joined by Congresspersons Lynn Woolsey and John Conyers, Ann Wright, Malik Rahim and John Cavanagh, Lynn brought me a ticket to the State of the Union Address. At that time, I was wearing the shirt that said: 2245 Dead. How many more?
    After the PSOTU press conference, I was having second thoughts about going to the SOTU at the Capitol. I didn’t feel comfortable going. I knew George Bush would say things that would hurt me and anger me and I knew that I couldn’t disrupt the address because Lynn had given me the ticket and I didn’t want to be disruptive out of respect for her. I, in fact, had given the ticket to John Bruhns who is in Iraq Veterans Against the War. However, Lynn’s office had already called the media and everyone knew I was going to be there so I sucked it up and went.”
    Let me translate for you:
    “I had originally been given the ticket to the SOTU and had decided that I would not be able to get the attention I so desperately want. So I gave my ticket to a a veteran.
    “But then I decided on a way to get lots and lots and lots of attention because I found out the MEDIA knew that I had been given a ticket.
    “What a perfect opportunity to get the media to pay attention to MEEEEEEE!!!
    “So I went to the vet, got the ticket back, then changed from my blouse into a t-shirt (The t-shirt was size XL, so I had to “suck it up” in order to fit into it).
    “You may recall that my stunt at the White House when I got myself arrested attracted almost NO media attention.
    “I was sure I would be able to get lots and lots of media attention.
    “I’m such a media attention whore.”

  190. It will be interesting to see if any heavyweight Dems will come out and make statements in support of her today.
    I suspect not.

  191. So much easier to call Cindy names rather than address anything substantive.
    Everybody’s an attention whore to some extent. At the end of the day, what does that tell you about anything? Some are better at it than others, some get paid for it, others just give it away.

  192. Pity we don’t have sloganized T-Shirts and then we could have a *real* substantive exploration of the issues at hand.

  193. At one point Cindy Sheehan could be seen as a crackpot who’d been driven to that status in part by her grief. As time went on, however, it became clear that the deaconess may not be all that mentally stable even without her grief as a contributing factor. She looks good to the Left because of her personal loss, and her willingness to wallow in it (even at the expense of her marriage) but she is being used. And by the most scabrous of professionally anti-American sorts, people like her traveling companion Medea Benjamin who honestly thinks Kim Il Sung is an agrarian reformer and that Israel should not exist.
    Yet she seems to enjoy it. And that is most puzzling of all to me, because in my experience (regretfully, after 19 months in Nam I have a fair bit of it) the loved ones of dead soldiers resist being such public figures, are wary of being used by others. They do, I admit, sometimes express rage in private that their loved one in particular was killed, but they never, ever, unlike Ms. Sheehan, do or say such stupid things as embrace Lynne Stewart and Hugo Chavez or opine that “This country is not worth dying for.”
    Grief is no longer to be considered in the equation. Cindy Sheehan is MERELY a crackpot today. And a very tiresome one. She’s having fun. (Pictures of her Venezuela visit establish that rather clearly.) But she is no longer to be taken at all seriously.

  194. “So much easier to call Cindy names rather than address anything substantive.”
    OK — Her notion that the President of the United States is a “terrorist” is just wrong. Her calls for the US to immediately withdraw all troops from Iraq would be disastrous.
    Part of the problem one has in trying to address anything substantive with regard to Cindy Sheehan is that she herself makes no substantive arguments. She is all about getting the maximum amount of attention for herself — attention just for the sake of attention.
    “Everybody’s an attention whore to some extent.”
    I’m not.

  195. I think the left likes her because they suppose her status as a dead soldier’s mother puts her notions beyond questioning. Once again it is an oft-used tactic of the politically correct to shut-down discussion.

  196. “She’s having fun.”
    I even doubt this, Cathar. I think, as another posted stated, she is being used, sort of going through the motions as if it was expected of her.

  197. Well, Miss Martta, if she wasn’t having fun in the pictures I saw of her chumming with Hugo, even doing that little Rockettes-like kick step with Medea and the rest of the gals (I also liked the Delilah-like dance she did with that multi-colored scarf), she was certainly doing a good imitation of it.
    But no, none of this can constitute media whoredom. Not even the many times she has posed at her son’s grave.

  198. Losing a son or daughter to war ( or anything for that matter) is horrible enough – and THEN having to then cope with the AWFUL reality that the war was based on “selective” intelligence and outright lies (BTW – judging from some of the previous posts here it seems that there is bipartisan agreement on that assertion) – well, as a parent that would probably drive me over the edge just like Cindy Sheehan …and perhaps some of you others as well.
    I don’t blame her for her actions one bit.

  199. You might not “blame” Ms. Sheehan for her actions, man in the street. Yet you also might not have said or done so many of the dumb things Cindy has.
    Very rarely, however, does the loss of a loved one send one so deeply into the calculating embrace of the Hate America Left. Where, again, she seems to be happy now, speaking nonsense, threatening to run for Senator, etc. This doesn’t raise just a smidge of concern about the deaconess’s grip on reality?

  200. Yes – it does raise my concern, and I never pretended that she is entirely rational all of the time.
    War is hell
    War (based on lies) is way beyond hell – Ask Cindy Sheehan.

  201. “War (based on lies) is way beyond hell – Ask Cindy Sheehan”
    What, exactly, are the “lies” that the War in Iraq is based on?

  202. Cindy Sheehan’s hell has become entirely of her own making over the last year or so, doesn’t seem to have as much to do with war as it initially did. And not all of the demons pursuing her are Republicans or her son’s fellow soldiers.
    There is also the matter of her new-found activism based on lies, too. That one she has to continually be called to account for.

  203. Let’s pose the question back to you this way – On what “truth” connected to 9/11 is this war based on ?

  204. “Excuse me, can …”
    “Pardon me, would you…”
    “Let’s just leave $20 and go, ok?”

  205. “we must fight and win our own battles…3000 innocent americans are owed that action.”
    What difference does it make to the dead whether a war is fought in the name of totalitarianism or the name of liberty and democracy?

  206. “Let’s pose the question back to you this way – On what “truth” connected to 9/11 is this war based on ?”
    I guess that means that you can’t or won’t respond to my question.
    Why am I not surprised?

  207. I for one, Blue Condition, would like to believe that the dead very much cared that their own loved ones shall live under democracy rather than tyranny or totalitarianism. So don’t try “updating” Kenneth Tynan’s remark that he’d rather live on his knees than die on his feet. It does make a difference. Very much of one, and to maintain otherwise is callous cynicism at its utter emptiest.

  208. I’ll respond with three words: “Downing Street Memo” – now go ahead and enlighten us all with your “truths” …

  209. “I’ll respond with three words: “Downing Street Memo” – now go ahead and enlighten us all with your “truths” …”
    And just what was in the “Downing Street Memo” (exact quotation, if you please) that was a lie?

  210. From the DSM: “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy” – direct quote from Richard Dearlove, Head of British Foriegn Intelligence
    Pure and simple – Bush and Cheney were spoiling for a fight with Iraq from Day One – The majority of Americans understand that now. We were conned.

  211. “Bush and Cheney were spoiling for a fight with Iraq from Day One”
    Even if I were to agree with that statement, you have still not shown any lie.
    I can help you if you need some help understanding the meaning of “lie”, when it is used as a noun.
    Just let me know.

  212. outinforce,
    It’s quite simple: a “lie” should be defined as anything said that, in hindsight, is incorrect.
    So, for example, when the shoe store clerk says that your size should be in the back room, but it turns out not to be so — the clerk lied to you!
    When somebody leaves off a turn on some driving directions — they lied to you!
    When pundits and exit polls said Hamas wouldn’t get a majority — all a big, calculated LIE!
    Some people might claim that “mistakes” are not “lies” — they are LYING!
    Some people might claim that the WMD evidence was almost universally acknowledged as compelling — they are LYING!

  213. appletony —
    I think I understand.
    “It’s quite simple: a “lie” should be defined as anything said that, in hindsight, is incorrect.”
    So if I say that Bush lied, and he did not, then I have told a lie.
    Right?

  214. ROC РI’ll risk a serious reply to your flip remark. Though your political persuasion is far different from mine, we both need to guard against preoccupations and distractions. Historical perspective helps in this. I noted those assassinations, along with the 2000 elections because they are crucial turning points in our recent history. If we’re continually blinded by the present moment, we miss the context of what’s happening, and what’s being done to us. As Guido Santa pointed out, events would have played out quite differently if Al Gore had become President, instead of your guy. And it all hinged on five votes in the Supreme Court. You could say that W owes his position to the Ultimate Swing Vote, the Woman in Black, Sandra Day O’Conner. Without her vote, Alito would not now be sitting in her place.

  215. So if I say that Bush lied, and he did not, then I have told a lie.
    Right?

    no no no no no! That’s not how it works! If you say Bush lied it is true statement, period. There is no other option. If you say he lied, and it turned out he did not, the world would collapse upon itself in an unprecedented Blue Wave of impossibility.

  216. “As Guido Santa pointed out, events would have played out quite differently if Al Gore had become President, instead of your guy. And it all hinged on five votes in the Supreme Court.”
    I think you have in not quite correct, Troubadour.
    I think you mean to say that it all hinged on about 275 votes in Florida.
    Those were the votes that really counted.

  217. …and I’ll be glad to assist if you need help understanding the meaning of the word “denial” …. which apparently you are in up to your neck.

  218. On second thought, change it to the phrase “smug denial” BTW : you asked for, and I gave you, direct quotes from the DSM – care to respond to those directly ?
    No?? – why am I not surprised ??

  219. “…and I’ll be glad to assist if you need help understanding the meaning of the word “denial” …. which apparently you are in up to your neck.”
    I guess that still means you can’t or won’t say what it is, exactly, that Bush lied about.
    ps — Please do help me understand the word “denial”.

  220. “BTW : you asked for, and I gave you, direct quotes from the DSM – care to respond to those directly ?”
    Ummmm….so you did (provide direct quotations from the DSM, that is).
    But that is not exactly what I asked for.
    What I asked for was this: “And just what was in the “Downing Street Memo” (exact quotation, if you please) that was a lie?”
    I really do not see how the quotation from the DSM that you provided is a lie.
    All it says is that the “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy”.
    Where, exactly, is the lie?

  221. Just for you, I called up the White House and asked for the Bush Administration’s definition of “Denial”
    They told me that the President said it’s a river somewhere in Africa.

  222. “Just for you, I called up the White House and asked for the Bush Administration’s definition of “Denial”
    They told me that the President said it’s a river somewhere in Africa.”
    Denial? A river in Africa?
    Whatever in the world does that mean?
    Oh, I get it….De Nile.
    I can never figure out which it is — is it that the President is an incredible dummy who doesn’t understand the most basic English words, or is it that the President is someone so bright that he could figure out how to make 9/11/01 happen on purpose?

  223. outinforce – to refresh your memory, the US Supreme Court overruled the Florida Supreme Court, which had ordered a statewide recount. That recount, which independent studies have shown would have resulted in a win for Gore, was stopped in its tracks by a 5-4 vote. The only problem is the US Constitution explicitly gives authority to the states to conduct elections. This is why we Left of Centers maintain that the election was subverted, that Bush was installed rather than elected. When we say he is illegitimate, we mean it, and we have the Constitution to back us up.

  224. “to refresh your memory, the US Supreme Court overruled the Florida Supreme Court, which had ordered a statewide recount. That recount, which independent studies have shown would have resulted in a win for Gore….”
    Blah Blah Blah Blah.
    I see you have the talking point memorized quite well.
    I thought the independent studies had shown just the opposite.
    And, by the way, the vote in the Supreme Court was 7-2.

  225. Troubador,
    Maybe it’s time to MoveOn because all but the most die-hard conspiracists have come to realize that Bush would have won a hand count of Florida’s disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, as found by the newspaper-driven recounts after the fact. The only one out of four scenarios in which Gore “won” was by a 3 vote margin — too close in this circumstance to say anything. The people have decided to MoveOn but the spirit of Claire Booth Luce lives among the truly faithful, doesn’t it?

  226. Troubador,
    Maybe it’s time to MoveOn because all but the most die-hard conspiracists have come to realize that Bush would have won a hand count of Florida’s disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, as found by the newspaper-driven recounts after the fact. The only one out of four scenarios in which Gore “won” was by a 3 vote margin — too close in this circumstance to say anything. The people have decided to MoveOn but the spirit of Claire Booth Luce lives among the truly faithful, doesn’t it?
    If the Florida Supreme Court had followed its own election statutes, Gore’s recount request would’ve been discarded right away — but like in New Jersey with Torricelli (note the Jersey angle, folks), the state court decided to void the legislature’s power in favor of the maneuvering Democrats. Gore didn’t start out wanting a fair, statewide recount, either — it was just a cynical ploy to pick 3 Dem heavy counties in which to push for recounts.
    Bottom line: excrutiatingly close elections have sleaze ALL AROUND.

  227. Gore’s recount request was rejected. A statewide recount was ordered instead, which was a more evenhanded decision. And the vote in the US Supreme Court was most certainly 5-4. I agree about the sleeze, tho.
    I don’t pick up talking points from anyone. I do my best to educate myself.

  228. “Adios, amigo.”
    And a big “adios” to you, too, man in the street.
    I guess when you have nothing to back up the statements you make, you just want to bid “adios”.
    Remember — don’t lie. It’s not nice.

  229. There was no statewide recount option available within the FL election statutes. The time limits for all such requests had passed. It is up to the challenging candidate to challenge appropriately and he did not. It is simply not intellectually honest to treat it as a “stolen” election — a “f***ed up” election, definitely.

  230. The Supreme Court vote that stopped the recount was 7-2.
    There was another vote, 5-4, that said that there was insufficient time to establish new standards for a new recount that would meet Florida’s own deadline for certifying electors.

  231. sorry – Pardon my GWB grammar – forgot to add a “.” after “De Nile” ….but please do seek help for it anyway.
    So Long.

  232. Troubadour –
    to refresh your memory, the US Supreme Court overruled the Florida Supreme Court, which had ordered a statewide recount. That recount, which independent studies have shown would have resulted in a win for Gore, was stopped in its tracks by a 5-4 vote. The only problem is the US Constitution explicitly gives authority to the states to conduct elections.
    Actually, it gives that duty explicitly to the State Legislatures.
    Article II of the US Constitution:
    Each State shall appoint, in such a Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors
    Troubadour –
    This is why we Left of Centers maintain that the election was subverted, that Bush was installed rather than elected. When we say he is illegitimate, we mean it, and we have the Constitution to back us up.
    You have only your own delusions to back it up.
    And as far as your earlier point that Alito would not be on the Supreme Court if Gore had won, last time I checked, this was 2006. Are you saying that if Gore was elected, he would have cancelled the 2004 elections?

  233. If the Supremes had not improperly intervened, history would have taken a different turn. I don’t know what would have happened, I’m not that wise, but that one action precipitated a large number of Unfortunate Events.

  234. Okay who’s gonna make it 300? Anyone?
    Hey, maybe there’s a prize involved
    Or maybe the Barista can give us all a prize and close this thread (and then burn it)

  235. I guess it’s me, Pete
    ROCâ„¢, my point was that it was wrong that it went to the courts in the first place. The Florida Supreme Court was actually trying to circumvent their own legislature, in clear violation of the US Constitution (and probably in violation of the Florida State Constitution as well).
    The US Supreme Court was absolutely right to hear the case, and stop the Democrats on the Florida Supreme Court from trying to steal the election. Personally, I think they should have been impeached and arrested.

  236. Bob,
    Oh. But this is then the part that confuses me:
    “When we say he is illegitimate, we mean it, and we have the Constitution to back us up.”
    He is not illegitimate.
    I agree it should have stopped with the Florida law and not even gone to the Florida Supreme Court, but the fact that it did does not make his election illegitimate.

  237. Of course he is legitimate, he would be in either case.
    You are reading Troubadour’s words, not mine, that’s why I put it in italics. That’s why I said he was delusional.
    If you re-read it, I think it will be clear.

  238. Crank mentioned that abstinence education doesn’t work, and I just wanted to say I so agree. At GRHS the health book doesn’t even mention the word condom, every few pages the word abstinence is written. A kid who plans on having sex will not learn the proper contraceptive measures, he’ll only know what he’s doing is a sin etc, and as a result he might get an STD. I think that condoms should be handed out at GRHS. Or people should at least talk about contraceptives. It’s not like if you give a kid a condom he’s immediately going to have sex, but if you give a kid a condom who is planning on having sex, chances are he’ll use that condom to protect himself. Sexual education in GR needs desperatley to be updated, and liberalized.
    -Margot

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