We hear that the Montclair Board of Ed has mailed out “The Kindergarten Letters.” It’s official angst time – parents of five year olds can start fretting about how their kid’s kindergarten placement will shape their future lot in life…and whether or not the school’s culture is compatible with junior. Oh, and then there’s the teacher. Did you get the “right one”? Hey, kindergarten is supposed to be fun, so relax, enjoy the summer, but make sure you pick the right lunchbox in September.
So, did you get your first choice, second or sixth? Tell us now.

136 replies on “Only Twelve Years ‘Til College”

  3. A word of consolation for all those who wanted to avoid Nishuane due to its humongous size — it was our last choice for that reason:
    What a wonderful school! Excellent administration, super dedicated teachers, active, involved parents and, to our surprise, the size offers the benefit of more choices. Kids will have electives early on that fit their interests and abilities.

  6. When we landed here two summers ago just before school started we got assigned Nishuane and boy, we are so thrilled that we did. What an incredible school, such dedicated teachers and parents with a school spirit you can feel. Wait ’til you see the range of electives. Congrats to all those who got Nishuane — no matter what choice it was.

  7. We got our 3rd choice, but I am actually REALLY happy. I don’t think we could have gone wrong with any of the schools. The whole exercise of choosing schools was really draining and even more draining was trying to explain to out of town family and friends what was involved. I’m just happy now that I can move forward and plan my fall! My kindergartner is too. It was hard on her not knowing where she would be going!

  8. When we landed here two summers ago just before school started we got assigned Nishuane and boy, we are so thrilled that we did. What an incredible school, such dedicated teachers and parents with a school spirit you can feel. Wait ’til you see the range of electives. Congrats to all those who got Nishuane — no matter what choice it was.

  9. “Greenlandic Inuit” I tell you. You put down “Greenlandic Inuit” and you’re a monority and they have no idea what that is.
    (works like a charm)

  12. When I registered my little one for Kindergarten last year, I went down to the Board of Ed to register in person. I asked if they would tell me about the differences in the schools so I could make a choice. They told me my son would be going to Nishuane. When I asked what Nishuane was known for, they said it was for Gifted & Talented. I asked (tongue firmly planted in cheek) how they knew my son was both gifted *and* talented, they told me that Nishuane was the only school accepting white children. In retrospect, it worked out beautifully, better than I ever expected in fact, but I was a little surprised by the lack of tact.

  17. “You guys get to chose? Hey that’s pretty lucky”
    Not exactly. You make your preference known.
    The Board of Ed makes the decision based on race and gender.
    If you are of certain races you get “extra tickets” in the “lottery”.
    The methodology is secret and not ever discussed by the Board of Ed.

  18. We lives 3 blocks from a fine school instead we will have to drive across town for her to attend one that isn’t even vaguely in walking distance, Honestly makes no sense to me!
    And in a state that mandates child safety seats and adults to wear seat belts, there are no seat belts for the buses our children will travel on. I will have to drive her and school opens at like 3:40 or there abouts…They spelled her name wrong on the sheet and while I am apt to make typos–it sorta came as a surprise that she is being welcomed to the “2006-20067” school year.

  19. We lives 3 blocks from a fine school instead we will have to drive across town for her to attend one that isn’t even vaguely in walking distance, Honestly makes no sense to me!
    And in a state that mandates child safety seats and adults to wear seat belts, there are no seat belts for the buses our children will travel on. I will have to drive her and school opens at like 9:40 or there abouts…They spelled her name wrong on the sheet and while I am apt to make typos–it sorta came as a surprise that she is being welcomed to the “2006-20067” school year.

  21. cstarling — take a deep breath.
    Would you let your child walk to school if it were only a few blocks? No, I thought so. You have a vision of you walking to school with your child? Ok, that only goes for so long. Ten years ago, my 5 year old did walk to school by himself and nothing bad happened.
    His older sister had not gotten into the “school of choice”. It was not reasonible for her to walk, so I drove her. Once you have to get in the car, the distance is irrelevant.
    I would have applaudded the option of a bus. How many bus accidents have you heard about in Montclair lately? How much are you willing to spend in increased taxes to install safety belts in all school buses just in case these accidents happen?

  23. If you want your child to walk to school, move to Verona. There is no busing in Verona. All neighborhood schools, so your kids go to the school CLOSEST to their home.
    (and they’re all good, by the way).

  24. Many things:
    justeL & Verona parents- Because your kids go to the closest schools, there is segregation. Mostly white kids here, black kids there, etc. That is why here, in Montclair, we have the magnet school district.
    Montclair parents: OF COURSE there has to be a balance. The balance is between race, gender, disabilities, etc. So, your school choice is preferenced, but not 100% guarenteed.
    Thank you very much.

  25. correction.
    13 years till college.
    Kindergarden
    1st
    2nd
    3rd
    4th
    5th
    6th
    7th
    8th
    9th
    10th
    11th
    12th
    Thats 13!

  26. Hiding –
    But isn’t there segregation in Montclair too, if what an earlier poster said about Nishuane being the ONLY one to accept WHITE kids, is true? How is that any better? And awarding bonus points to certain kids based on race? What’s that?
    Furthermore, in Verona, you are slated to go to the closest school to your home, however, you are free to choose to move to another school in the district if you want and room in the class allows for additional students. I have seen this done many times.
    Also, when people move within the town, once their child has already started in a particular school, many families choose to keep their kids in that school so as not to have to disrupt them.

  27. Here’s another thing that’s great about our system: my 9-year-old was unhappy and not thriving in his school. In most systems my only choices would be a) to lump it or b) to send him to a private school. In Montclair, we went on the tours together and we were able to choose a different public elementary school. Will it solve his problems? Who knows, but it certainly opens many possibilities.
    justeL: the earlier poster didn’t mean they were only accepting white students at Nishuane – just that they needed the balance there.
    cstarling – all of the school buses have seat belts.

  28. Helen,
    But what about what I restated earlier: “And awarding bonus points to certain kids based on race?” (again, an earlier poster’s message) What’s that?

  29. “And awarding bonus points to certain kids based on race?”
    The Montclair BOE won’t disclose their process or methodology of achieving “Racial and Gender Balance” in each school.
    Other districts have instituted lottery systems where students with desired races or gender are given extra “weighting” in the lottery. So, depending on your child’s racial makeup they might receive more “chances” at your number one pick than a child of a race not desired (for balance) at a particular school.
    But again the BOE won’t disclose their method, I have asked in writing. The letters were never acknowledge or answered.
    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
    Martin Luther King Jr.

  30. Integrated schools, not neighborhood schools, are the cornerstone of the Montclair School system. This is what makes the a highly regarded national model and a true treasure. If you want your child to walk to school, you should live in a town that promises neighborhood schools. Anyone who does any research at all into the school system here will learn that being able to walk to your school is not a top priority. My son, who’s now in college, feels so privileged to have been educated in the diverse school system that Montclair offers.

  31. Diversity is terrific. I prize that in the schools. Diversity instituted via racist considerations is hypocritical and damaging to community.

  32. ROC- Montclair has been doing exactly what it is doing now to integrate its schools since the 1970s — and it is all the better for it. What damage has the community endured: The high schools sends all its kids, regardless of race, to top colleges. The “achievement gap” has narrowed significantly compared to what’s happened nationally, and, if housing prices are any measure, the appeal of Montclair has suffered no “damage” whatsoever. Can you cite any evidence to the contrary, rather than simply spout platitudes???

  33. I hear ya ROC. I’ve had to deal with this system for years with my kids. People I know in other districts can’t believe Montclair BoE gets away with it. My request for a written policy goes unanswered too. Diversity is lovely and all that. I chose this town – and I get the whole idea. But it’s frustrating at the same time on a variety of levels for everyone. I’ve had african american parents at Nishuane explain simply that they grew up in that neighborhood and went to school there so they request their kids go there. But that makes the white students that have to ‘fill in’ placed there to compensate sometimes. When my kids went there (and they were luckily moved out because I made a big fuss) they were constantly picked on openly for being white? I was shocked and then saddened when no one would dare touch that matter at the school. We live in the south end of town and each year my kids get picked on all the way to school for being practically the only white kids on the bus. The school and the bus company basically tell me to bug off when I ask for help. If the reverse were true I’d expect and rightfully so – my kids to be in big trouble for that. We’re told basically to get over it. I’ve had african american friends gloat that they wanted a particular school for the start time so they can get to work and laughed as they told me they used the race card proudly to get what they wanted. I’ve listened to other people say they blatantly checked off hispanic, even though they were not, just to get bumped ahead on lists. And guess what – it works too! I filled out ‘human’ in the race section of the application for middle school out of frustration. Otherwise I just play by the rules and we never get placed where we want or need as my kids ascend the grades to middle school. I know this post will invoke ridicule here but I read ROC’s posts and had to vent.

  34. I wish we lived in the Utopia RoC dwells in, however, the real world is not a fair one. Some balancing to make it a little more fair is not racism (or sexism). The proof is in the pudding in Montclair. I do a lot of interviewing for my alma mater, and I am frequently struck by the very different world-view Montclair students have compared to students from other towns. You may not like the way they get there, but the experience of diversity and the insistence on diversity has a profound effect on these kids.

  35. Race relations in this country are complicated and it’s too bad that anyone’s kids get picked on because of their ethnicity. But really the best way to build better relationships is for kids of different ethnicities to live side by side as they do in Montclair schools. I totally agree with Helen that the diversity of the Montclair school experience has a profound effect on kids, black and white, and though there might be some rough patches here and there, they all benefit enormously from it. Talk to any practically any graduate on MHS, and you will hear that again and again.

  36. ” Some balancing to make it a little more fair is not racism (or sexism).”
    “Balancing” meaning different treatment based on race and gender.
    So we use the race of the child for admission (or not) to a particular school because having the right racial mix desired for social reasons.
    My, but that has an odd “ring” to it, doesn’t it?
    Racism is by definition using race as a factor for *unequal* treatment.
    Simply, it is an unfair and racist practice, no matter the benefits.
    Let’s remember that different drinking fountains were justified to further desired social aims.
    Both are wrong.

  37. “I totally agree with Helen that the diversity of the Montclair school experience has a profound effect on kids, black and white, and though there might be some rough patches here and there, they all benefit enormously from it.”
    The message is clear:
    Racism is wrong except in a good cause, then racism is good!
    It breeds resentment, it is inimical to equality and simply another example of “ends justify the means” moral confusion at the heart of much of liberal social theory.
    Either we believe in equality or we do not.

  39. An affirmation of genuine equality is a “simplistic platitude?” In Montclair, maybe. Nowhere else, I pray.
    And it’s “ideological righteousness” to wish for genuine equality, since so much “good” comes out of managed semi-equality? Oh lady, go soak your head, then set to reading Friedrich Hayek or Russell Kirk.

  40. My own public school experience was the complete opposite of the Montclair experience. In my entire K-12, there were 3 black kids, and not at the same time.
    My older son went to Northeast (free pre-K) in 1986, because it was within walking distance. Things were a bit looser then. My younger one went to Nishuane. It’s a great school, so don’t worry.

  41. “Can you cite any specific harm to anyone that more than 30 years of “managed” integration in Montclair has caused.”
    Parents who do get their #1 choice in school simply because of the race of their children.
    Are you saying that is a trivial thing?
    The water that came out of “colored” drinking fountains was just as drinkable.
    What is your point?

  42. oops:
    Parents who do NOT get their #1 choice in school simply because of the race of their children.

  43. go soak your head???
    wow, that really elevates the level of this discussion.
    i’m outta here….

  45. (easier to storm off in a huff of self righteousness than actually debate a hard point. Says it all, eh?)

  46. A genuine discussion here about the merits of our school system might be interesting, but don’t call it racism if it isn’t.
    The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows:
    “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”
    The International Council on Human Rights Policy (IHCRP) argues:
    “racism has not disappeared… we confront forms of racism that are covert or more complex or are linked to wider issues, such as changes in the nature of the state, gender discrimination, or marginalisation due to developments in the global economy.”
    American heritage Dictionary:
    rac·ism
    NOUN:
    The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    MSN Encarta dictionary: ra·cism [ ráy sìzzəm ]
    noun
    Definition:
    1. animosity toward other races: prejudice or animosity against people who belong to other races
    2. belief in racial superiority: the belief that people of different races have different qualities and abilities, and that some races are inherently superior or inferior

  48. “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”
    The definition proves my point.
    In Montclair some people, solely because of their race, will not be allowed to attend the school of *their choice*.
    So Montclair’s Race Based system of preferential treatment fits:
    [an] “exclusion based on race which has the purpose of impairing the enjoyment on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the social field of public life.”

  49. Helen writes (in justifying the enforcement of discrimination):
    I am frequently struck by the very different world-view Montclair students have compared to students from other towns. You may not like the way they get there, but the experience of diversity and the insistence on diversity has a profound effect on these kids.
    And of course Helen, that is the “right” world-view, isn’t it?
    Those other kids are engaging in thought-crime, aren’t they?
    Maybe if enough kids develop the “right” world-view, we won’t have to go to step 2 (“re-education” camps)

  51. p.p.s.
    It’s obvious that it is racist. By definition!(That’s why Montclair Mom bolted for the door).
    The only possible argument is that the “ends justify the means”.

  52. I am waiting for Montclair Mom, if she pops back in again, to dismiss the above definition of racism as a “simplistic platitude.”

  53. Okay, i’m popping back in because I can’t resist … (just lose the “soak your head” tone, please)
    You seem to be ignoring history here. African Americans endured an experience in this country that put them at an enormous disadvantage, one that it is still necessary to try to correct. Yes, there are flaws in how that’s playing out. But at least attempts are being made to get things on something of an equal footing.
    That said (and I’d love to have the last word, but I know better) this is a go-nowhere discussion because we’ve probably got some fundamental ideological differences. I can respect a different point of view, see is merits, but still disagree.
    Have a nice day!

  54. I’m the “other” MontclairMom, the one without the space between the words. My daughter just graduated from MHS after fourteen years in the system (pre-K through 12) and she’s headed off to a great college. Even tho attending Nishuane had her on the bus for a long journey, we thought the school (followed by Hillside, Glenfield and the high school) experience was great. Were there rough patches?? Sure. But she never had problems with kids on the bus to Nishuane or any other school. And if you doubt the quality of Montclair’s public schools, take a peek at the ad in last Thursday’s Montclair Times listed where MHS seniors are attending school — it’s amazing!!

  55. ” But at least attempts are being made to get things on something of an equal footing.”
    To acheive “equality” by inverse “inequality” holds accountable people who were not responsible for the initial inequality.
    It punishes the son for the sins of the father.
    Inequality does not begat equality.
    Either we believe in equality or we do not.
    Any child in Montclair, regardless of race or gender (or anything else) should have an EQUAL chance of attending the school of their choice.
    Anything less, or anything which favors some over others is injustice.

  56. Interestingly, I find this a common notion among liberals too:
    “this is a go-nowhere discussion because we’ve probably got some fundamental ideological differences”
    It’s as if lacking 100% agreement with the (of course, obviously 100% correct) liberal position there is “no point in discussion”.
    (yet they claim *we* are the ideologically fanatical!)

  57. We all bear the burden of our history, so I’m okay with being punished for the sins of my father because I have reaped lots of benefits from his as well.
    Also, it’s fairly obvious to me that we haven’t achieved true equality among races in this country√¢‚Ǩ‚Äùyet. Yes, a lot of progress has been made–largely because of affirmative action policies.
    But we probably shouldn’t go there….

  58. “so I’m okay with being punished for the sins of my father because I have reaped lots of benefits from his as well.”
    Again, I prefer Dr. King’s approach:
    [let’s] “… live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
    What is troubling about your position is that it is not only are you “ok” with punishing yourself, but everyone else too! A rather Calvinistic approach, I’d say.
    “Also, it’s fairly obvious to me that we haven’t achieved true equality among races in this country√¢‚Ǩ‚Äùyet.”
    I agree. And we never will by seeking as a solution a different type of inequality in recompense. That’s precisely the issue. Many of the societal problems which liberal-progressivism seeks to solve are, rather, furthered and exacerbated in the attempt.
    It’s the abject failure of liberalism.

  59. Do you know, Montclair Mom (with a space) of any specific “sins” (or even minor non-indictable offenses) your father committed by way of “racism?” If there’s no bedsheet in his past, after all, why burden yourself with unnecessary efforts to assume residual guilt, however historically derived? (Have you thought of atonement via listening to Tupac cd? They’re a true penance for most folks.)
    I will cite an old New Yorker drawing, which shows an earnest-looking white guy in glasses and a three-piece suit, replying to an angry-looking black guy in a dashiki and a chandelier-scraping afro, with “You must be mistaken. I wasn’t even in Virgina in the 1620’s.”

  60. opps, bad editing:
    What is troubling about your position is that not only are you “ok” with punishing yourself, but everyone else too!

  61. mixing of the school populations could be achieved using geography and qualification for subsidized lunches. If two students want one seat, the school could “balance” based on bringing schools closer to the district-wide percentage of subsidized lunch kids. If that didn’t favor one or the other kids, then the one who is farther from the school should get it. Result would still be a mix of kids who learn the life lessons of getting along with each other (kids from different neighborhoods and economic backgrounds), but without the improper use of race by the school system

  62. Why not dispense with the social engineering entirely?
    Allow any parent to select any school *without regard to race*. If two tushies seek one seat, hold a lottery where everyone gets *the same* chance (again without regard to race).
    If everyone has the same shot at *their choice* who’d be unhappy?

  63. Appletony’s idea would work too. How do you feel about that ROC?
    BTW: I agree that a lot of “societal problems which liberal-progressivism seeks to solve are, rather, furthered and exacerbated in the attempt” Welfare is a good example. So are some well-meaning but dumb educational reforms. Affirmative action polices, by my lights, do not fall into this category. (Affirmative action for black americans, that is. No need for women, or for that matter, certain other ethnic minorities. But that gets tricky….

  64. Appletony’s “plan” is just a lawyerly (no offense) end-run. He knows there are more minorities on meal assistance so it aims at the same thing only with plausible deniability about the racism.
    It’s like saying we have nothing wrong with Orthodox Jews joining our social club but our meetings are Saturday at noon and we only serve pork products.
    Affirmative action is corrosive because there is always doubt when minorities make achievements.
    If there is a gap in math scores for African American kids you spend more money helping them *raise* their scores you don’t lower the benchmarks.

  65. p.s.
    Liberalism runs into trouble because often the *result* is the focus rather than the actual root problem or the cause.
    A good economy and a truly free market work to undermine racism to a much bigger degree than Affirmative Action.

  66. It’s not plausible deniability — it targets the real problem, which should be that of being an economically disadvantaged child, not that of being an African-American child. Use of race as a proxy for disadvantage is unfair to people of the target race. I say target the disadvantage (poverty) itself, not the race. Society’s norm and goal should be that race does not matter. Focusing on it only ensures that it does matter, and usually not in a positive way.

  67. Don’t disagree with anything you say, especially about not lowering the benchmark. But the root causes of racial inequality are do deep and so entrenced that it will take lots of time to level the playing field. Affirmative action is a way to speed things up — imperfect, but largely effective as evidenced by how far black americans have come in a relatively short period of time. At some point, it won’t be necessary. (It’s not, for example, necessary for women.) But we aren’t there yet

  68. “it targets the real problem, which should be that of being an economically disadvantaged child, not that of being an African-American child. ”
    I am confused. What is the goal here? I thought it was to make education *equal*. So every child has the same opportunity at an equally good education.
    The broader goal of social engineering is not a proper function of the school system.

  69. M_M, you contradict yourself.
    Affirmative Action is, by definition, a lowering of the benchmarks based on race. Yes, this is “quicker” because it only appears to “solve” the problem.
    If some kids don’t perform math at the eighth grade level it would sure be “quicker” to (for them) lower the eighth grade benchmark to the sixth grade level. You could then claim “look everybody is at the right level” but the problem is not solved – only papered over.

  70. If “leveling the playing field” is not necesssary for both women, and, as per your phrasing “certain other ethnic minorities” (a term which cries out for explication of its archness), then, Montclair Mom, perhaps you’ll tell the many colleges and corporations which have programs “boosting” these groups exactly that. Purely in the interests of fairness, of course.
    But see, there’s your failure right there. Out of what I’m guessing is some extreme strain of white liberal guilt, you still wish to give preference to one group. And you excuse this by citing past history, say it’s simply a matter of “speeding things up.”
    Yet don’t other groups merely ask for what amounts to a sort of injection of STP (“the racer’s edge,” after all) into their case files? Where does it stop, with the one group you somehow feel is “entitled” to, so to speak, extra credit? Aren’t you in the least concerned how vulnerable your arguments make you to both charges of hypocrisy and to your own offenses against the concept of equality?

  71. “We all bear the burden of our history, so I’m okay with being punished for the sins of my father because I have reaped lots of benefits from his as well.”
    I’m sure norton philbert would be quite willing to punish you Montclair Mom. Will that be silk, leather or just plain old handcuffs?

  72. ROC,
    the fact is that government is allowed to treat people differently based on economic factors — that’s why some of us pay taxes out the butt while others don’t. You’re not going to achieve anything by fighting all government selection/filtering methods. So choosing the route that’s less repugnant to the Constitution is a good way to go. You haven’t addressed the geographic approach, either, which is even less suspect than using economic factors — one town, one school district, mix ’em up.

  73. ROC,
    the fact is that government is allowed to treat people differently based on economic factors — that’s why some of us pay taxes out the butt while others don’t. You’re not going to achieve anything by fighting all government selection/filtering methods. So choosing the route that’s less repugnant to the Constitution is a good way to go. You haven’t addressed the geographic approach, either, which is even less suspect than using economic factors — one town, one school district, mix ’em up.

  74. arrgh! caught by the time out.
    Anyway, less high dudgeon and more high spirits to all in celebration of our independence day!

  75. I am not fighting the legality, but the purpose and fairness of such an idea.
    In the main I believe in self determination. I don’t think the government should decide for us “how we should live” or “how we might be better people”.
    Brown vs. the Board of Ed was about fairness and equality. Segregation then (and as it is practiced now) are about unfairness and inequality. And for precisely the same reasons, I might add – some else has decided *how* people should live.
    I would maintain that the reason we have schools is to educate our children. The proper “mix” (either racial or economic) is not what schools are about. We should allow choice and provide busing so that everyone may attend the school of *their choice* – fairness, equality.
    Liberals (and I suppose some quais-conservaitves) want to enforce the “good” societal result. The seek to use the government to force people to live the “right way”. (What do you think IZO is all about?)
    Government should not “instruct” or “enforce” lifestyle choices. It’s job is to ensure equality (real equality) and fairness and protection of rights.

  76. p.s.
    I have no problem with the geographic approach, randomly applied without accounting for other factors.
    But I still think the best solution is to allow parents to choose themselves.

  77. p.s.
    My choice plan would never be accepted because minorities might not chose to “mix” to the degree that our liberal orthodoxy commands us to do.
    (or vice versa)
    And we simply cannot allow people to make wrong choices, even if everyone is happy with them, it wouldn’t be for their own good!

  78. * “justeL & Verona parents- Because your kids go to the closest schools, there is segregation. Mostly white kids here, black kids there, etc. That is why here, in Montclair, we have the magnet school district.”
    Verona is 93% caucasian.
    * The problem with letting everyone pick their local schools is that you end with rich powerful PTA’s in more affluent neighborhoods staffed by stay at home parents (read: affluent) that subsidize the schools and you get a disparate quality of education.

  79. “The problem with letting everyone pick their local schools is that you end with rich powerful PTA’s in more affluent neighborhoods staffed by stay at home parents (read: affluent) that subsidize the schools and you get a disparate quality of education.”
    Then you choose that school! And there will be 600% desired enrollement for the space and you hold a lottery. And lots of those powerful, affluent types end up at different schools.

  80. p.s.
    That’s what happens here anyway. But the difference is that the lottery is not fair and racially weighted.

  81. >>>Government should not “instruct” or “enforce” lifestyle choices. It’s job is to ensure equality (real equality) and fairness and protection of rights.

  83. “ROC — a bit off point here (okay, entirely off point) just wondering how you’d feel about a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?”
    Totally wrong. A misuse of government and a perversion of the Constitution.

  84. (banning or allowing of gay marriage should be up to the state legislatures. I favor allowing it, but it should be up to each state, I don’t think marriage is a constitutional right. but, I don’t really want to debate the issue I’ve done so a zillion times…)

  86. I am both, to some degree.
    You’re need for labels is interesting to me though. I suppose one is ok and the other is “out of bounds”, “tolerance” wise?

  87. I am both, to some degree.
    You’re need for labels is interesting to me though. I suppose one is ok and the other is “out of bounds”, “tolerance” wise?

  88. I am both, to some degree.
    You’re need for labels is interesting to me though. I suppose one is ok and the other is “out of bounds”, “tolerance” wise?
    (have a good weekend too!)

  89. I agree with ROC, a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage would be a perversion of the Constitution. Let those issues be handled by the States as originally planned by the founding fathers.

  90. Ok. Once more, from the top.
    Montclair once had neighborhood schools. A MHS student was told that he couldn’t take a certain advanced course because he hadn’t taken the pre-requiset in middle school. It turns out that the middle school that kids from his neighborhood went to didn’t offer the prequisite. Oh yeah, the school lines were drawn such that the students from predominantly black neighborhoods were the ones who were not offered the prerequisits for the advanced courses.
    There was a lawsuit, Rice et al vs. Montclair Board of Education. Montclair was told to integrate its schools. At first Montclair tried a combination of redrawing lines and forced bussing, but that was very unpopular. Montclair then came up with the magnet system.
    The bottom line is, Montclair is under a COURT ORDER to integrate its school system. The purpose of the magnet system is to do this as painlessly as possible.

  91. once more from the really top:
    Desegregation is not the same as integration.
    Integration goes farther than Brown vs. Board of Ed. (I can’t find the Rice case online).

  92. But what can be inferred from this:
    https://www.montclair.k12.nj.us/district/magnet/history.cfm
    would be that DESEGREGATION was court ordered not integration…
    Desegregation means you cannot *deny* services or placment in a school based on race.
    (ironic, that, since that is precisely what is happening)
    A parental choice plan would more perfectly desegregate, though not necessarily integrate to the same degree.

  93. I may be wrong on this, but I don’t *think* Montclair is under court order to desegregate its schools. That’s why the district lost a bunch of federal money that it used to get for busing. But most people in this town — at least i hope it is most people — still value an integrated schools system and are willing, even eager, to forego neighborhood schools if need be.

  94. I may be wrong on this, but I don’t *think* Montclair is STILL under court order to desegregate its schools. That’s why the district lost a bunch of federal money that it used to get for busing. But most people in this town — at least i hope it is most people — still value an integrated schools system and are willing, even eager, to forego neighborhood schools if need be.

  95. how or why do you think that the court oder was lifted? Did it run out…like a coupon?

  96. I don’t often find any common ground with ROC, but there is one point that was brought up that I agree with. The Montclair BOE should not be able to keep secret the parameters that they use to integrate the schools (or whatever term you want to use to describe the school selection / assignment process).
    I have never asked for this information, but I now intend to.

  97. I don’t think they keep it secret at all. The last superintendent, at least, was quite upfront about it: The aim is to balance every school by race and by gender. The proportions should reflect the proportions of the district at large. They don’t always get it exactly, but they get close.

  98. “I don’t think they keep it secret at all.”
    How is the “balance” achieved, M_M? Lottery by chance, weighted lottery, superintendent with a list of the children’s races? How?
    I invite you to write to ask.
    You will not receive a response.

  99. Here is the letter I sent on a few occasions:
    To whom it may concern:
    Would you describe to me the methodology used for the
    lottery which places kindergarten children in the
    magnet school program in Montclair?
    I’d specifically like to know how the race and or
    gender of the child are used as placement criteria or
    lottery weighting.
    I have checked the website and cannot find this
    information.
    Thank you,

  100. We have been in the Montclair Public Schools since 1990. Montclair is under a desegregation order. Back then, it was public knowledge that a lottery system was used for placement. Siblings were given special consideration.

  101. it a weighted lottery where kids of certain races get extra “tickets” and other races get fewer “tickets”. A racially based exclusionary system is not necessary for desegregation.

  102. Here’s the letter that you should have received.
    Dear Mr. RoC,
    No, we will not divulge the lottery information that allows us to follow the court order for desegregation.
    If you would like a copy of the court order please apply for it from the court.
    There are no “tickets” in this lottery just a list.
    Nyah nyah nyah
    The Montclair Board of Education
    ps. We have responded to your request now we ask that you cease and desist in your inquiries. You bore us!

  103. The goal is to see that each school maintains a “balanced” population. No group is guanranteed its first choice.

  104. “No group is guanranteed its first choice.”
    Quite right. But *every single person* who is denied their first choice is denied because of the race or gender of their child.

  106. No RoC,
    Every person who is denied their “first choice” is denied it because of the race or gender of someone else’s child.

  107. “I am an invisible man. When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination – indeed, everything and anything except me.”

  108. I find this issue personally vexing in that I am not in favor of racial quotas, but I like the idea of an integrated school system for my children. The sad reality is that integration will not happen without forcing quotas. In this writers opinion, the virtues of integration outweigh the negatives of a forced quota system (In this instance).
    I make this statement because I don’t believe that any specific school is offering a better education than another.
    Those quotas become much more unacceptable to me when my child gets bumped from Harvard for those same reasons.

  109. I don’t think that we accept invisible children into the Montclair school system. Only children who can check a specific box as to their color are admitted.
    If you’re invisible what color are you?
    On another note: do biracial children count as 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 of whatever race is targeted.
    How would you count Tiger Woods. Would he get his first choice?

  110. “I find this issue personally vexing in that I am not in favor of racial quotas, but I like the idea of an integrated school system for my children.”
    In a parental choice plan system you could choose the most integrated school for your children to attend.

  111. Or conversely, you could choose the white seperatist school whose motto is “Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!”.
    It’s your parental choice.
    Of course, Montclair would be in violation of the court order but who cares you’d have what you want.

  112. See, that’s the problem, parents could choose to violate the court order.
    Shouldn’t all the schools be integrated equally?

  113. Does the person above so enraged about local Christian schools (like the Eastern Christian grouping in Haledon, I assume) actually have proof that a Christian school has such a tagline in New Jersey? If not, then he/she should really not bother posting.
    Or was that really another unfair, uninformed attempt to tag evangelicals as bigots?

  114. I think a few changes to our current system could help to level the field in terms of choice. If the system tracked individuals that that did not get their Kindergarten choice, they could move those individuals to the top of the pecking order for middle school choice. I also think that the automatic feeder system from k-5 into middle schools should be elimated. A Kid that goes to Northeast automatically gets fed into Mt. Hebron (guaranteed) if they do not request a different school. This system is in place only to make it easy for administrators handling middle school placement.

  115. comment to “Your Parental Choice”
    I don’t think that Whites or Christians have a monopoly on bigotry. Since you seem to be arguing for integration, your comments lost its validity with those prejudicial words.

  116. yankeefan,
    I was quoting the KKK motto since that seemed to be the way RoC was headed.
    Yes, those are prejudicial words as is the demand that Montclair stop it’s integration so that parents can have their “first choice”.
    After all, until the court order segregation was the order of the day and it seems that some want it back that way.

  117. It is a fine line between wanting whats best for your children, and doing what the majority feel is the best for society as a whole. Those thoughts and feelings can be construed as bigotry. As much as any individual can tell about themselves, I feel that I am in no way bigoted. That being said, if one of my children is a victim of “the quota game”, I find myself on the other side of the argument.

  118. Any of topic of Montclair always comes back to race. It’s disturbing that in 2006 race plays such an important role in differentiating people. I love Montclair, but it has been divided by de facto segregation. The most politically correct people here can be the most unconciously racist here. It’s sad but montclair is like a Ying-Yang, one side white, one side black and slight variations in the middle.
    -Margot

  119. “That being said, if one of my children is a victim of “the quota game”, I find myself on the other side of the argument.”
    That’s because you are fair minded. Racist considerations are always wrong. No matter how “well intentioned”.

  121. “our data suggest a moderate automatic preference for Black American compared to White American.”

  122. From what I understood (and we’re going back at least 10 years here) here’s how the placements worked: There were different “hats” with names in them: BM/WM/BF/WF and presumably some kind of “other.” The district filled those hats with those families whose first choice was, say, Watchung. And then they randomly picked names until they had the right proportions, reflecting the district at large. If you didn’t get your first choice, you went back into your appropriate hat for a second pick and so on.
    I suspect this method is probably not legally defensible (or if it is, it would cost the district a fortune to defend it), hence the district’s reluctance to put it into writing. However, most people here WERE (and sadly this doesn’t seem to be the case anymore) very, very happy with the outcome: integrated schools
    BTW: Life is filled with all sorts of “preferences,” most of them benefitting white Americans. The only time white people complain is when the preferences work against them, not in their favor.

  124. “There were different “hats” with names in them: BM/WM/BF/WF and presumably some kind of “other.”
    Randomly applied racism.
    Imagine applying the same process to allow government to decide who may live in a neighborhood?
    “I am sorry the quotient of black families in the area is filled, you’ll have to buy a home elsewhere.”
    What a marvelous utopia we’d create, eh? Sure we’d give up freedom, choice, and equality, but think of the benefits!
    A while back in this conversation I said such racial bias was harmful to community. And someone asked how. By merely discussing the topic in an open way someone else has suggested I was “heading” towards KKK membership.
    See the harm now?

  125. If the Montclair Board of Education can either use the magnet system to achieve racial balance, which gives the parents some choice, or go back to using a combination of drawing school boundaries based on the racial makeup of the neighborhoods and forced bussing, which allows for NO choice.
    If you think that the school assignment scheme should not take racial balance, then complain about the congress and legislature that write the laws, the president and governor and who enforce the laws, and the judges who interpret the laws. Don’t complain about the Montclair BOE, which is simply trying to OBEY the law.
    Don’t forget, if Montclair had provided all of its students with equal educational opportunity in the first place, there would be no court order.

  126. “I was quoting the KKK motto since that seemed to be the way RoC was headed.”
    Yep that’s what I said- he was headed towards the KKK side of thinking.
    Did I say anything about membership?
    NO.
    RoC did.
    So maybe he is thinking of joining.
    Mind you, I’m not saying that he is nor did I say that he is.
    Lets let him speak for himself.
    A right that he doesn’t grant to others, preferring to put words in their miuths and quotes around items that aren’t really quotes.
    So Roc, you appear to be against integration. Are you for segregation and a return to segreagated schools?
    How does the BOE have an integrated system if they don’t know the race of the students and don’t make sure that the court order os obeyed?
    Are you willing to pay the fines if the court order is not obeyed?

  127. Give me a break everyone!!! You live in a bubble, have you seen Montclair High during the day? Check out the kids hanging out on the corners. nice? don’t think so. MHS, ranked 75th. And Magnet schools, my ass. You are all pretending that the schools are so great, to make up for the fact that your paying such HIGH TAXES!!!Wake up you liberal FREAKS!

  128. Give me a break everyone!!! You live in a bubble, have you seen Montclair High during the day? Check out the kids hanging out on the corners. nice? don’t think so. MHS, ranked 75th. And Magnet schools, my ass. You are all pretending that the schools are so great, to make up for the fact that your paying such HIGH TAXES!!!Wake up you liberal FREAKS!

  129. Many parts of life in this country are based on quotas. If you are ever caught up in a corporate downsizing, your fate will be determined by your race, age & gender just as much as by work-related factors. No company wants a discrimination lawsuit when they fire people so the bring in the lawyers to decide where the ax falls.
    Is this the price of progress toward a truly color-blind society, or is it just nuts? Perhaps both.

  130. I’ve been laid off several times and in addition to your:
    “race, age & gender ”
    companies look much more towards your salary. If you are under 40 you are not protected for age.
    Since people aren’t aware of who else has been laid off- unless you are unionised- there’s not much area for filing a class action suit.

  131. My layoff package included a report on how many people of different races, age groups, genders etc. were being let go.

  132. that doesn’t usually happen.
    I know ’cause I’ve been laid off by 3 major corporations and two small companies.

  133. “My layoff package included a report on how many people of different races, age groups, genders etc. were being let go.”
    So did mine, now that I think on it. I guess it shows who wants to forestall lawsuits.
    “companies look much more towards your salary.” That’s true as far as the first cut, but once you’ve got a bunch of people with equal salaries, the quota factors take over.
    In my department we had a white male, our top performer, and a Hispanic female, near the bottom of the peformance rankings, both making the same salary. Guess who got to keep her job.

  134. why don’t you agrieved white guys go complain to rush limbagh. you’ll get a more sympathetic audience…

  135. and MZ, your point is totally lost on me. I’m not sure what the implication of your remarks are. BTW: The kids hanging out on the corner could well include my children or their friends. What’s your problem with them exactly?

  136. montclair mom, wake up! you’re too busy to see what it going on because your nanny from trinidad is pushing the stroller. why isnt mhs in the top 20 or top 50? why are schools like MKA thriving in a town that people pay over 15K for taxes? because they wouldn’t dare send their children to montclair public schools? where is the tax money going? not the students, that’s for sure. again, get out of your bubble. Residents should be fighting the school administration, budgets, for the sake of ourstudents and not wasting their time on “historical”homes or whether or not the mcmansions are unsightly.

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