It’s official: John McCain has named Sarah Palin, Governor of Alaska, as his running mate, making her the GOP’s first ever female VP nominee. Forty-something Palin is a mother of five…More on the Palin “fix” from the Washington Post, here.

335 replies on “McCain Confirms Palin For Veep”

  1. She’s a member of the NRA, is against a woman’s right to choose and is against gay rights. That’ll show Lieberman and Ridge. Ah, the fleeting friendships of politicking.

  2. Well, one of my older sons used to love the old show in reruns “Room 222”, and damned if Karen Valentine didn’t change her name and become the governor of Alaska!
    Wait till I call him — he’ll be thrilled!

  3. ok, so she was a sports reporter, then city council. then lost the election for lieutenant governor, then served 2 years in a big seat, and now she is going to run the country after McCain dies?

  4. Not a bad move. It WILL sway some strong minded Hillary supporters. She isn’t Condi but better than Romney or Huckabee.
    Her son is in the military, and another has special needs. She will be a great story next week at the convention.

  5. Plus, she tried to get her ex brother-in-law fired from the state police and when she didn’t get her way, she tried to get the public safety commissioner fired!
    Good luck, McCain…mud will be slung.

  6. A former beauty pageant contestant and TV announcer with experience overseeing a town of 8,000 souls. Hmmm, I am reminded of a Woody Allen flick somehow. Decrepit oldster casting himself alongside youth and beauty. Well, at least she can take his arm and keeping him from tripping off the stairs of his jet, or pick up the thread of his meandering discourse when his mind starts wandering. Excellent!

  7. JT, you won’t find me making any sexist comments about Palin. Being an attractive woman doesn’t make her incompetent.
    However, I would be very concerned about a VP to an elderly presidential candidate who has only very small-town governing experience with the exception of the last 2 years–during which time she’s been beset by a scandal that she may have had her brother-in-law fired by proxy from his state trooper job, and then fired her employee who fired the cop.
    I can’t wait for the day we elect a qualified woman to the highest office in the nation. But this looks like cynical, naked pandering to the Hillary supporters who are still bitter that she lost the nomination.
    I think it’s gross.

  8. A small town in Alaska is, I’m sure, in many administrative ways (given he heavy hand of the Federal government throughout Alaska) reasonably like a one-congressman state like, wait, let me think…yes, Delaware!
    Some of the other comments above, coming from ostensibly “liberal” and therefore tolerant representatives of our society, are just saddening. And one step at best past the musings of such a great intellectual as the lasered-one-who-shall-not-be-named. (Jerseygurl, you in particular revealed your core burbling churlishness yet again above.)

  9. From Wikipedia: “She hunts, eats moose hamburger, ice fishes, rides snowmobiles, and owns a float plane. Palin holds a lifetime membership with the National Rifle Association. She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.”
    Throw in “anti-gay marriage,” “pro-life,” “son in the military” and “young woman” and I think the Republicans have a winning ticket.
    Good luck, dems.

  10. From Wikipedia: “She hunts, eats moose hamburger, ice fishes, rides snowmobiles, and owns a float plane. Palin holds a lifetime membership with the National Rifle Association. She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.”
    Throw in “anti-gay marriage,” “pro-life,” “son in the military” and “young(er) woman” and I think the Republicans have a winning ticket.
    Good luck, dems.

  11. I was thinking that Michael Palin might be a better choice. At least we could laugh our way into the poorhouse if McCain wins. And now, except for certain sporting events that will be DVR’d to avoid commercials, the TV is officially OFF until after the election.

  12. If she were a Democrat, Cathar would be wondering out loud if that was a pin-on bun or a full blown wig.

  13. She has a little Dr. Melfi thing goin’ on…
    Were I a master linguist, I would still have no words to offer that would express my sentiments on this pick better than pure laughter.

  14. She sounds very charming on paper and I definitely like an outdoorswoman. Can’t wait to hear/see her on camera and learn a little more. Won’t get my vote, but my admiration is available.

  15. Cathar, come on…
    Would you really compare Palin’s experience as a small-town mayor and governor to Biden’s senatorial experience (35 years in the Senate, chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee for 8 years; ranking Democrat and/or chair of foreign relations committee since 1997)?
    Also… I like Conan’s VP pick much better.

  16. KirdbirdRex (can I use the short form nex time, please?), if you wish me to desist from comparing Ms. Palin’s experience to Biden’s. okay. I’ll just then compare it to Obama’s. It’s similarly limited. (Though I’d wager Alaska is always much bigger governmental challenge than a state senatorial district in Chicago.)
    8 years chairing the Judiciary Committee, however, is not the same thing as having displayed great talent in the job. I still recall his array of “grump faces” during the hearings for both Alito and Roberts, which were better suited to a Romper Room re-run than to a serious treatment of a Supreme Court nominee.
    Nor is Biden’s foreign policy “experience” all that impressive. The Wall Street Journal this very morn had an interesting article on Biden’s now-overlooked, ditzy proposal to partition Iran, which he was touting as late as July.
    Then there’s all that plagiarism by Biden, fating back to law school. (At a school via which, if they’d had real moral standards, Biden might never have neared the bar in the first place.) That one is extremely upsetting because it hints at someone always willing to take the easy way, to evade, to cheat, to subsequently whine and obscure by way of mounting a weak defense. However much that recalls the lesser qualities of, say, Ted Kennedy or even one of his nephews, it does not reassure me otherwise about Biden’s capabilities.

  17. What a blatant attempt to attract and mollify Hillary supporters! I don’t think it will work.
    Her stance on abortion rights, gay rights are the antithesis of Clinton’s and of my own views.
    A poor choice to lead our country! What happens if Mc Cain cannot fulfill his term? He better have a damn good cabinet to guide President Palin.
    This ticket should be an afterthought, if that.
    Obama will win.

  18. don’t know much about her but she solid conservative creds. Looks to me like the winning ticket,
    Say goodbye Obama

  19. Well, she is hot and does do a lot of out-doors stuff. So, I’d totally hang out with her.
    But, the whole anti-gay rights, anti-abortion thing really are deal breakers for me when it comes to getting my vote.
    I’ve got to agree that adding Palin to the ticket has more to do with wanting the “Women’s Lib” vote than it does with her actual experience (the irony of course being that her stances are all mostly against the current “Women’s Lib” stances).
    At the beginning of the election I really thought I’d end up voting Republican for the first time for McCain (and I still think Obama’ll turn out to be an empty suit unable to push anything of substance through Congress). But, the more I learn about McCain and from what little I’ve learned about his running mate (who stands a good chance of becoming the president before McCain’s term is up), the more it looks like Obama has my vote.
    It’s a sad (and standard) state of affairs when my vote is decided not by the candidate but by my fear of his/her opponent.

  20. Cathar, I am also troubled by Biden’s past plagiarism. There’s no defending it. Unfortunately, there is usually no perfect choice when it comes to electing someone to national office.
    We do disagree re his service on the Senate Judiciary Committee.
    I’ll read the WSJ article, haven’t seen it yet.
    Clearly, it can argued that there’s a parallel between Obama and Palin re their Washington experience. What I find shocking is that after months of howling about how Obama is not qualified for the job because he’s a first-term Senator, McCain has now selected a running mate who has *less* experience.
    So did they actually believe their own argument, or was it just convenient at the time? And what will they say now?
    I don’t find Obama or Biden to be perfect. I doubt there exists a perfect candidate. But I believe Obama’s judgement, critical thinking skills, and proposed policies are stronger than McCain’s.
    It will be very interesting to see whether women voters are swayed by a female nominee who takes the opposition view on so many of the traditional feminist ‘values’ issues.

  21. What? She eats mooseburgers?!? On the basis of that alone her qualifications are beyond reproach.
    Whew, for a minute there I thought she had absolutely zero credentials. Finally, coupled with an uneducated buffoon who plagiarizes from novels his personal stories and self-admittedly has absolutely zero experience with the economy, the salvation America has been looking for is at hand!
    She hunts, eats moose hamburger, ice fishes, rides snowmobiles, and owns a float plane. Palin holds a lifetime membership with the National Rifle Association. She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.”
    Throw in “anti-gay marriage,” “pro-life,” “son in the military” and “young woman” and I think the Republicans have a winning ticket.
    Good luck, dems.

  22. You’re toast. This is a bigger vp blunder than Dan Quale.
    It is not very often that I get to quote Pat Buchanon, “Biggest political gamble I believe just about in American political history…that is not hyberbole. I can think of no choice of VP that approaches this. ”

  23. Sarah Who?
    John McCain may have just done what Barack Obama otherwise probably could not: energize Hillary Clinton to really and truly push her disaffected supporters to put Obama in the White House.
    Hillary worked very long and very hard to come as close to capturing the Democratic nomination as she did. As a champion for the equal rights of women in the workplace, I suspect that Hillary considers it an affront that a political nobody like Sarah Palin has been chosen for the VP slot because of her gender more (much more) than any objective qualification. And I cannot imagine that Hillary will sit idly by while this pretender attempts to steal the throne that Hillary thinks was, and is, rightfully hers.
    And, as angry as Clinton may be that Obama blocked her historical ascendancy to the presidency, I highly doubt that she will sit idly by while a woman whose positions are diametrically opposed to Clinton’s, a woman whose only reason for being McCains’ VP nominee is that she is a woman, attempts to stake her claim as the surrogate for all the disaffected Clinton voters out there. The depth of support among women for Hillary, and their anger over her loss to Obama, stems from their belief that Hillary truly is the best person to be president. I have to believe that many of Hillary’s female champions will see right through McCain’s cynical ploy of nominating a woman for VP who has in no way earned their support in the way that Hillary Clinton has.
    If McCain wanted to capitalize on the Clintons’ lingering animosity towards Obama, he would have done better to have selected Romney or Pawlenty.

  24. What? She eats mooseburgers?!? On the basis of that alone her qualifications are beyond reproach.
    Mooseburgers are big White Castle hamburgers (Ratburgers)

  25. She’s the perfect choice. Imagine, if McCain dies, we can claim to have a gun totin’, mooseburger eatin’, pot smokin’ only when it’s legal and great hairdo wummin for a president. What a great country.

  26. Her stance on abortion rights, gay rights are the antithesis of Clinton’s and of my own views.
    Clinton gets far too much credit for being pro-gay rights. She’s pandered and straddled on gay marriage and don’t ask/don’t tell (an invention of her husband’s, that) all along in order not to offend yokels that formed key parts of her base.

  27. As others have already noted, its not the gender or color of your skin that is most important, it is your values and beliefs. If McCain chose Palin to pickup Clinton supporters for his overall electability, he will find that decision to backfire once they learn how opposing Palin’s values and beliefs are to Clinton’s. Women will not vote for a woman based on gender alone, they will also want to agree with the candidate’s platforms. The experience issue should also be cancelled-out now (McCain criticizes Obama for lack of experience, Obama criticizes Palin for lack of experience). And if you recall, Ronald Reagan wasn’t exactly a career politician either, proving that “star” quality and powerful speeches can trump just about any deficits. It will still be a close election, but I believe Obama will squeak out the win.

  28. Mr. laser wrote: “You’re toast. This is a bigger vp blunder than Dan Quale.”
    Didn’t vp Dan Quale win? (At least the first time?)

  29. Didn’t Obama give a speech last night?
    I seem to remember him talking……. Something about “change” I think….
    I can’t wait to see this “hockey mom” give Biden what for.
    And stop with the lack of experience, Obama’s “community organizing” cannot compare with, you know, actually governing, you know, a STATE.

  30. Mr. laser wrote: “You’re toast. This is a bigger vp blunder than Dan Quale.”
    Didn’t vp Dan Quale win? (At least the first time?)
    Go, Prof!

  31. And stop with the lack of experience, Obama’s “community organizing” cannot compare with, you know, actually governing, you know, a STATE.
    Considering that Sarah Palin has been the governor of a state with less people than Essex County for only about as long as Barack Obama has been running for president, you’re right. There is no comparison. Barack probably got more experience in politics and leadership as a “community organizer” on the South Side!
    By the prof’s measure, Joey D would be more qualified to be President than Sarah Palin. And actually, he probably would be. I’d have to imagine that a President DiVincenzo would at least reverse the decades of neglect that our national parks have suffered, and for that, he’d probably get my vote!

  32. Is the Alaska GOP Veep a fan of Alaska oil drilling?
    Yes, very much so. Don’t forget, every Alaska resident gets a kickback of royalties from the oil that is sucked out of their ground.

  33. WOW! Talk about train wreck. It wasn’t bad enough that a large proportion of republicans already got off the Straight Talk Express, but now mcCain gives them nothing to get excited for. Palin sounds like a low budget Hillary Clinton. All those disinfranchised Hillary voters will either back the party ticket or not vote. The ship be sinkin’

  34. Perlstein,
    Most folks in Alaska favor drilling (I’ve seen numbers in the 70% range).
    And yes, Palin does.
    (Remember, Alaskans enjoy yearly royalty checks from the oil pumped in their state. NJ? We get a rebate on our property taxes.)

  35. Besides, standing next to a young hottie (as GNM has declared) like Sarah Palin seems to make McCain look much more the old, wrinkly, white-haired guy he already is, and accentuates his lack of youthful vigor. Really, it’s not a flattering contrast. It’s like he’s running with his daughter.
    (Or for Ice, prof, et. al., it’d be like if Hillary picked Chelsea as VP! How’s that grab ya?)

  36. Laserboy, you have always been toast. The very burnt kind. (And not just from excessive exposure of your pate to the sun.) That you now find it convenient to suddenly quote fellow blusterer Pat Buchanan (while misspelling his name) when it suits your malign form of ignorance only indicates just how addled and valueless you really are.

  37. I have a bad case of Electile Dysfunction:
    The inability to become aroused over any of the choices for President put
    forth by either party in the 2008 election year.

  38. I don’t know…isn’t it bad form to pick a vice-presidential candidate who’s prettier than your wife?

  39. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
    You really *are* looking at a cute young outdoorswoman and mom with a 100-watt smile (… definitely not an adherent to the full panoply of failed Bush policies and platform …).

  40. You really *are* looking at a cute young outdoorswoman and mom with a 100-watt smile
    Maybe McCain is also going after the Hooters vote.

  41. Once again, the GOP offers you someone who is probably great at a BBQ or tubing trip but still bearing IOU’s to the oil industry when they show up at work the next day.

  42. I don’t know about anyone else, but I now think the good people at Saturday Night Live are pleased with this choice. Biden may be many things, but he won’t provide the comedy fodder like Palin will to the oval office. If they’re really lucky, she’ll shoot a lawyer in the face during a moosehunt.

  43. Sarah Palin has NEVER left the united States. She’ll be fine for foreign policy. 20 months as governor (whom she won based on her celebrity status) is going to be our VP. Great move. Once this blows up, and the GOP scrambles, maybe McCain will drop her and pick a different VP

  44. It would be very difficult for McCain to back out of this vp choice unless there is some kind of scandal.

  45. Q: Gov. Palin, what is the role of the Vice President of the United States?
    A: I really don’t know what the job is.
    Q: How do you know you are qualified to apply for it, then?

  46. My biggest hopes for this election have nearly been met: I previously wanted chaos and gridlock because active, productive politicians yield nothing but trouble. I’ll settle for some chaos mixed with no truly repulsive personalities because these tickets at least provide a whack upside the head for some of the more-entrenched players in both parties.

  47. What’s scary is the whole red state vs blue state thing is alive and well. While many voters cry “change,” what you have are still a lot of religious conservatives who view change as a new face on the core set of values they treasure. So despite all the faults you can find of the McCain-Palin ticket, I’ll bet most republicans across the nation will vote for them as a vote against the democratic party and values. Thats the tragedy with the two party system: even though an individual candidate might be the better pick, voters are still caught up in which party they must be labeled as a supporter of. The “independent” party is a joke and is a failed attempt to dismantle the two party system. So I’ll vote for the best candidate, but I’ll have to endure the label of the party they belong to, even though I may not support all of its platform values and social status.

  48. For anyone to think that a skirt is going to get the vote of women who want to protect women’s rights” is senile. A “bush bush” isn’t going to get our votes.

  49. Laserboy, just because I have a reasonable education, can spell and catch literary and historical references does not make me an elitist.
    It does, however, clearly make me smarter than you’ll ever be. See YOU for the next 8 years, you pathetic dummy.

  50. It is pretty cool though that we’ll either have a person of color as president or a woman as vice president. History in the making.
    That said, I don’t see that Hillary supporters are the kind of folks who will like Palin’s view. That is, unless they were conservative to begin with but were mainly supporting Hillary because she is a woman.

  51. You are an elitist because you believe you are superior and righteousness. You are neither. Under it all there is doubt, hatred, and fear. I pity you.

  52. Shocking all around. McCain just blew it, IMHO. Now I really know that I will be writing in the name of the Libertarian candidate in November. McCain, thank you for regressing the party back to 1952.

  53. MM,
    I’m surprised by your reaction. I like her. I like that she’s a Governor– I HATE the idea of a Senator as Pres.
    Of the 3, she seems like the only real person. (And the most executive experience…)
    But I can’t wait to see her go against Mr. Puffery– Biden. That will be fun.
    So while I’m not enthused by her right-wing side, she is a tough woman, who was not afraid to fight against her own party– I like that.
    And unlike Obama who has done NOTHING (“community organizing”?), Palin has.
    So, this solidified my vote for McCain.
    Well. 95%………

  54. Prof: I don’t think she has the experience to be Veep, sorry. Also, she used her clout to have her ex-brother in law’s boss fired. I question her ethics.

  55. MM,
    I think once we find out more about this brother in-law, her actions- if any- will be understandable.
    I know some folks who, if it’s found that this bastard her sister, or harmed the kids, will understand if Palin worked to can his ass.
    As for experience, she has more than Obama…
    And what “experience” are you looking for?
    Cheney had the most experience of almost any VP, see where that’s got us.
    She runs a complex state- complex in its resources and environment- riddled with corruption.
    She is smart and focused.
    I’d rather that than Biden (Mr. split Iraq in 3!) or Obama (who again, has done NOTHING).
    Remember, she’s negotiated a pipeline deal with Canada (I KNOW Obama has NEVER done such a think, and don’t think Biden has either…).
    But for me, while I like Biden’s toughness, I think Obama’s has no fight in him (Putin will roll him in a second…).
    McCain seems like a tough old man– I like that.
    Palin will kick your ass too.

  56. To the surprise of no one who has been a regular on this board, the prof has gone ga-ga for Sarah Palin. A woman whom McCain has only even met once, very recently. A woman whose only political credentials are a short term as mayor of a town with less population than Glen Ridge, and as governor – for a mere year and a half – of a state with less population than Essex County.
    You write that you hate the idea of a senator as president, yet you are all for McCain. Unless perhaps you, like many, harbor secret doubts that McCain will live through his first term (i.e., 72 year old man with history of bouts with aggressive skin cancer). Under such a scenario, the country would be in much better hands with the likes of, say, Mitt Romney. There’s a man who ran both a state AND the Olympics. Experience!
    As I’ve noted before, I continue to be disappointed in the way that the John McCain of 2000 has morphed into someone I cannot fathom throwing my support to by virtue of his blatant, cynical political pandering. It strikes me as quite clear that Sarah Palin was selected for her plumbing – and probably her youthful looks too, considering that if McCain was really bent on selecting a woman for VP, there are several much more “experienced” women in the Republican Party from which he could have chosen (CT Gov Rell, HI Gov Lingle, Sen Olympia Snow, Sen Kay Bailey Hutchinson, etc.).
    For some, of course, logic never enters into the equation, and they enthusiastically quaff down the Palin Kool-Aid!

  57. Exactly, Pork Roll. Why not pick a woman with more experience? There are several from which to choose. Why Palin?
    Also, Alaksa=pipeline=fuel=proximity to Russia. There’s a lot going on there that my brain has yet to unravel but I am sure I’ll find it.
    The religious right, I am sure, will love her for her antequated views.
    What was McCain thinking?

  58. McCain was thinking, “Damn, Paris was right! I AM an old, wrinkly, white-haired guy! I’m gonna look like the crypt-keeper next to Obama at the debates! I need to get a young hottie* on my ticket!”
    *As officially declared by GNM.

  59. This is supposed to attract the Hillary vote? Pallin and Hillary have zero in common, well except for the va-gi-gi.
    Before this, I thought McCain had a good chance to win. I think he just blew it.

  60. SSP–while I guess a part of me is also excited that we’ll have either the first black man or the first woman in the white house after this election… gee, I dunno.
    It’s not about getting *any* woman into the white house. It would be a hollow victory if the first woman who makes it there is so abysmally unqualified.
    Talk about the ‘soft bigotry of low expectations.’ McCain obviously thought he was getting a 2-for-1 by selecting a woman who is also so far to the right on social issues. I think he made a huge error.

  61. Wow. How dumb are you prof?
    “Of the 3, she seems like the only real person. (And the most executive experience…)”
    “As for experience, she has more than Obama…
    And what “experience” are you looking for?
    Cheney had the most experience of almost any VP, see where that’s got us. ”
    So what is it, does experience matter or doesn’t it? ou’re obviously selective in what experience you deem relative, so what, in your obviously expert opinion as is evidenced by politicians near and far seeking your consultation for names that fit executive government positions, is the criteria for the specific amount of experience required for VP?
    You’re voting Republican but claim experience doesn’t matter as evidenced by Cheney.
    But then you vilify Obama for not having experience, Biden for having too much, and press lips firmly to Palin’s buttcheeks for having just the right amount.
    It’s simultaneously hilarious and sad watching you debate yourself.
    Seriously, please get your thoughts together before you regurgitate them in public.

  62. If he was going to pick a woman he should have picked one who was A. more experienced and B. a bit more moderate on issues like right-to-choose and gay rights. I mean, he’s really dumber than a box of rocks if he thinks that people (translated: women) who were going to vote for Hillary are going to vite for Palin. There are about as alike as Ann Coulter and Maureen Dowd.

  63. dannybo,
    Once again you go all personal here. I enjoy a little back and forth, but you have such a bitter and mean edge that you make this no fun at all.
    Understand, I was addressing Mrs. Martta. That you felt the need to jump all up in my face is typical of your, ah, way…..
    And unlike you I guess, I’m an Independent who takes time and evaluates my thoughts as they relate to the issues.
    That I struggle with the choices in front of me is who I am.
    I don’t see a “D” and think that’s my guy. Likewise, I don’t see “R” and assume the worst. (I happily voted for Dinkins and Senator Al D in the 90’s)
    But if this is dumb to you, so be it.
    I don’t really care.

  64. >>”I think once we find out more about this brother in-law, her actions- if any- will be understandable. I know some folks who, if it’s found that this bastard her sister, or harmed the kids, will understand if Palin worked to can his ass.”

  65. Prof, but oh my gosh… don’t you have any concerns about Palin as you learn more about her priorities/value system? If you’re not a far-right evangelical, it’s hard for me to understand why you’d find her acceptable as a candidate.
    She is for teaching creationism in public schools.
    She vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to domestic partners because she learned it was unconstitutional in Alaska, but has been looking into amending the constitution so that they can permanently deny rights to gay couples.
    She supported Pat Buchanan in his 2000 presidential run.
    She opposes abortion even in the case of rape or incest.
    There’s more, but I’ll leave it at that for now. This woman scares the crap out of me. I absolutely support people’s rights to their relgious beliefs, but I’m damned if I’ll let fundamentalist Christians decide what’s right for my womb and my (future) kid’s education by allowing them to continue to invade the highest levels of government.

  66. I second what Fran said re the ethics scandal.
    I’ll add, Prof, that she’s not only accused of trying to get her ex-BIL fired. She is also alleged to have pressured one of her employees in the administration to resign because he wouldn’t participate in firing the ex-BIL.
    If it turns out that’s true, do you think it’s OK?

  67. I totally agree. She’s scary and her views need to stay with her and her religious freaks. I was on the fence about who to vote for but McBush helped me off the fence and right into Obama’s yard!

  68. I’m in another yard, another neighborhood, another universe entirely! There is no way in hell I will vote for either of these candidates right now.

  69. its ok MM, NJ most likely will vote for Obama, regardless of your vote. As for Prof- I hope you plan on teaching your students that the world was made in 7 days and is only about 2thousand years old. Oh, and an 800 year old man put millions of species onto a boat for 40 days and started the world anew. Not to mention that Man and T-REX lived side by side. Way to kill the educational system. Hopefully your vote will also buy you a ticket into Heaven, as Im sure the Church will gladly sell you one

  70. Man and T-Rex DID live side by side. I’m a BIG fan of the late Marc Bolan.
    As for NJ, yeah, tell me something I don’t already know. That Libertarian village up in NH is looking better every day.

  71. I wonder how Gustav is going to affect the GOP convention, and how the GOP can benefit from this disruption

  72. I hear rumblings that it may be postponed. Which would be the right thing to do.
    On the bright side, maybe Michael Moore will get washed away with the flotsam and jetsom.

  73. Michael Moore is unbelievably ignorant and irresponsible in his commentary on the timing of the convention and the coming hurricane. He has no shame.

  74. Emdee (or Empty, not sure),
    “…her views need to stay with her and her religious freaks.”
    What a wonderful thing to say in our free and tolerant Country (not to mention inclusive and liberal town of Montcalir). Let’s see, if you disagree with Gov Palin then just level a bunch of ad hominem attacks on her beliefs as a Christian. Would you have had the testicular temerity to have said such vile had she been a Jew or Muslim? I doubt it.
    So here’s you chance to practice what I’m certain you preach out and about on the streets of our home town…try and be a bit more open minded. Feel free to critcize her views, her record, her experience (unlike we are permitted to do with Obama) but please leave the religious part out of it.
    And please remember having a candidate for V.P. that has little to no real experience is a WHOLE lot different than having a candidate for Prez with the same qualifications.
    As with all my posts…put that in your pipe.

  75. Obama:
    Can’t criticize the size of his ears, Can’t criticize his lack of wisdom, Can’t criticize his lack of experience, Can’t criticize his wife, Can’t criticize his record, Can’t criticize his comments about his white grandmother, Can’t criticize his relationship with Wm. Ayers, Can’t criticize who helped him acquire his house, Can’t criticize his race, Can’t criticize his religion, Can’t criticize his relationship with his angry and hate-filled pastor, Can’t criticize his not wearing the US Flag pin while campaigning (or the fact that you won’t find him without it now), Can’t criticize….and the list goes on.
    Criticize his age, Criticize his record, Criticize his wife, Criticize his wife’s money, Criticize his voting record, Criticize his conservatism, Criticize his not knowing how many homes he has, Criticize Palin’s religion, Criticize Palin’s having a child with Down’s Syndrome, Criticize Palin’s firing an M-16 A2 while visiting her State’s deployed Guardsmen, Criticize her lack of experience, Criticize the fact she was Miss Alaska, Criticize her good looks, Criticize….
    What’s good for the Gander really shouldn’t apply to the other Gander & Goose.
    Let’s celebrate Hypocrisy, YEAH!

  76. Pitbull I like your style!! breath wasted though…at least in this liberal town.
    I was not too happy with McCain but now I can’t wait to put out my lawn sign! Hero vs Zero

  77. Not “empty” patheticbull, just honest. Fortunately I can and will continue to spread my distate and disgust for someone like Palin. what makes you think that if she were muslim, jewish or whatever that I wouldn’t just say “she and her religious freaks” can keep their garbage views to themselves? I am an equal opportunity critic. And religion is not off the table. In fact, it’s very much on the table since the self-proclaimed religious right freaks started making it part of the political process.

  78. In this country we have (or are supposed to have) a separation of church and state.
    I find it annoying (and often offensive) when politicians go on (and on) about their religious views. There’s no place for religion in politics. And just for the record, I’m a proud Jew. I would say the same thing if a Jewish politician brought religion into the equation.

  79. EmDee (or EmCee of the misguided)
    It’s not distaste and disgust it’s called “hate speech.” Feel free to dillusionally call it what you will.
    Your words can’t help people see you as anything but a hypocrite and a bigot as well.
    Obviously you realize that you aren’t seriously being taken by a single intelligent person here when you say such mean-spirited things.

  80. And you, Bullsh**, can call it what you like. Change the channel if you don’t like what you see. There’s no place in politics for religion. Let the zealots believe what they want, just don’t bring it to the political arena. I won’t go to your house of worship, temple or church to listen to it either. Nothing hypocritical or bigoted about my views. Don’t put religion out there if you can’t handle the comments that will follow.

  81. One of the GOP’s frequently asserted claims about Barack Obama is that he ‘lacks experience.’
    Interesting that the party apparatchiks would permit their 72-year old presidential candidate to select as his VP – just a heartbeat away from the most powerful office on the planet – one whose qualifications for the office include the positions of TV sportcaster and Miss Alaska.
    A move to co-opt dissatisfied Hillary supporters? An attmept to appease the looney right with a gay-hating, god-fearing gun nut? Maybe.
    An insult to the intellgience of the Amercian people (and America’s women in particular)?
    You betcha!

  82. I’d like to pose a serious though hypothetical question to those serious types (though I know the EmpDees out there will try to respond as well)…
    …What happens should the Democrats fail to win another election to the Republicans? Will it be the springboard needed to launch a third party? Will it cause a majority of people to “check-out” of the American political process altogether? Or will it spawn something else?
    Just would like some serious replies to what I hope is a serious and legitimate question.

  83. I think “yes” to all of the above. 1. There has been talk for a long time about a liegitimate 3rd party. 2. I think many Americans are fed up with the current political system…me included. 3. As the demographics of our country change in the next decade, I definitely see “something else” happening. What that “something else” is remains to be seen.

  84. Montclarigirl,
    You rock! I’ll look for your sign as I drive around town.
    To be honest though, I (a person who is as conservative as they come) am not sure whether or not I’m voting for Obama or McCain.
    No sh*t! I am jealous of the fact that the Democrats have a candidate that they are so passionate about. Too bad the Republican Party couldn’t do the same. Instead they put on the ticket someone akin to a John Kerry….ick!
    Masticator par excellence

  85. Another Christian/religion hater in little Jimmy.
    Don’t worry Jimmy…there’s no other god here other than EmpDee and you.
    I’m sorry, is religion soooo bad that you’re scared of what others believe? Just give Mommy a call and she’ll reassure you that everything will be okay when you go to bed tonight.
    Oh, and knowing Prof personally, I can tell you he’s quite a wonderfully thoughtful, intelligent and humorous man (with a great family).
    So sorry all of this has upset your World-view. All of the people with their tickets will pray for you.
    Smoke it!

  86. Empdee,
    That’s the best you can do? Why is verbally sparring with you like fighting a battle with someone shooting blanks.
    Give it a better shot than that or just don’t even try.

  87. PitBull, I’ve honestly always supposed that the makings of a “third” party lie more in disgruntled Republicans than in disaffected Democrats. In great part because I think the self-styled “progressives” in the Democratic party (laserboy naturally excepted) are probably too pragmatic to want to go down a Eugene Debs or Norman Thomas-like, or even a Henry Wallace-like for that matter, road via a 3rd party.
    Whereas those who imagine themselves libertarians yet still nestle in the Republican party – you know, the Ron Paul crowd and their new-found “friends” such as Pat Buchanan and his fellow neo-isolationits – are dumb enough to split off at some point. I’m sure of that one, though how effective any party they could form is another, very different question.
    Still your question is an interesting one. With the added caveat that forming a party and actually paying for functionaries, office space, etc. (and where do all those Democratic and Republican “strategists” who appear on Fox Ness come from? how does such an apparatchik “new class” a la Milovan Djilas comparably develop for a third party?) sounds like a daunting task indeed. The existing 2 parties have had the advantage of time and money to develop their extensive infrastructures. The only similar “outlaw” group which I can think has ever done something similar is the CPUSA, which during the 30’s through the 50’s “flourished” in a strictly relative sense. Their continued willingness to take in someone like Comrade laserboy notwithstanding, I’m sure the CPUSA’s experienced loyalists are few, aged and tired, thus even with the addition of fellow hacks from the Socialist Workers Party and a few other groups just don’t have the numbers or the energy to provide the germ of a new “progressive” party.
    Regrettably, in my opinion, the Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan nuts do have the energy if pressed. If neither the numbers nor the experience.

  88. Where have all the hawkish Republicans gone? To me, the most important issue is national security. Who’s gonna step up to the plate? All the other issues depend on that one.
    To use an analogy:
    A very sick man who won’t follow doctor’s orders to rest and take it easy bellows at his wife and family that he “has a business to run!” To which the wife answers, “There will be no business to run if you are dead.”

  89. KatebirdRex, one correction. Quite a few more folks than just fundamentalist Christians differ with you on “freedom of the womb.”. The ranks there also include most Orthodox Jews, 7th Day Adventists, Roman Catholics, Mennonites, the Amish and assorted other Anabaptist sects, Muslims, et al. They also include quite a few denominations where African-Americans are in the great majority. And even such a quirky, total civil libertarian as the estimable (and very, very nice personally) Nat Hentoff, who has always defined himself proudly as an “atheist Jew.”
    ‘Fundamentalist Christian’ is too often tossed out as a slur. Even so, it does not adequately describe so many who share similar views on some, but hardly all, religious, social and moral issues.

  90. It seems as if the major problems lie with those that stand to the far side of their respective parties.
    The President should be somewhere in the middle and each state should decide the extreme issues.
    It makes it more palatable for those who live in completely different areas.
    I don’t know if anyone else sees it this way, but I think it only makes sense.
    Abortion, Religion, Death Penalty, etc. make sense to have as state issues.
    We can weed out the loonies and just deal with the day to day issues without someone being either ridiculously liberal or conservative.

  91. Here, though, is an example of “religion gone wild”:
    5 buried alive ‘tradition’ – Pakistani pol
    Saturday, August 30th 2008,
    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – A Pakistani lawmaker defended a decision by northwestern tribesmen to bury five women alive because they wanted to choose their own husbands, telling stunned members of Parliament to spare him their outrage.
    “These are centuries-old traditions, and I will continue to defend them,” Israr Ullah Zehri, who represents Baluchistan province, told The Associated Press Saturday.
    “Only those who indulge in immoral acts should be afraid.”
    The women, three of whom were teenagers, were first shot and then thrown into a ditch.
    They were still breathing as mud was shoveled over their bodies, according to media reports, which said their only “crime” was that they wished to marry men of their own choosing.
    Zehri told a packed and stunned Parliament on Friday that Baluch tribal traditions helped stop obscenity and then asked fellow lawmakers to stop making such a fuss about it.
    Several lawmakers stood up in protest, describing the so-called honor killings as “barbaric.”
    Human rights groups accused local authorities of trying to hush up the executions, which according to local media reports and activists took place a month ago in Baba Kot, a remote village in Jafferabad district.

  92. Wow. Where to begin?
    git2itgal – While it’s easy to reduce what Governor Palin said to an inaccurate sound bite, she was asked by Larry Kudlow if she’d consider the vice presidency. Her reply was that she would first like to know EXACTLY what a vice president does because she is used to being fruitful and working hard. If analysis is beyond your capabilities, she is saying that she’s not interested in being a figurehead. Can YOU tell us EXACTLY what it is a vice president does?
    And for all of you who are disparaging McCain because of his age and Palin because she’s a woman, I’m sure you’d all get your panties up in a bunch if any MENTION is made of Senator Obama’s race. But then, no holds barred when it comes to white men, and as long as women are guaranteed abortion rights, say what you will about them (no, I am NOT in favor of repealing Roe V. Wade)
    Palin has, in fact, been out of the country. And yes she sees nothing wrong in teaching intelligent design along with evolution (ooooh, imagine suggesting there was SOMETHING guiding the process of evolution so that we didn’t end up walking on our hands and eating out of butts? That would SURELY lead to promoting white, fire-breathing Christian gods demanding the sacrifice of our first-born sons), but she is AGAINST mandating any such thing as part of school curriculum. As usual, supposedly “tolerant” liberals once again demand silencing any view that’s not their own.
    The Democrats’ already-tired talking point that McCain only chose Palin because she’s a woman is more cynical than anything McCain has done. They are urging women not to vote for her…because she’s a woman! After all, that’s all women are concerned about: gender. Is the candidate a woman, and is she a “good” enough woman. And in case that’s not enough to grab the “woman” vote, let’s throw abortion in. Palin is pro-life; she actually wants babies to be born!! YIKES! It is insulting to assume women vote solely on the issue of abortion, as if national security and the economy don’t matter to us.
    Experience? Let’s see. If McCain dies, he leaves Palin commander-in-chief of a powerful military, surrounded by top-notch military advisers. If Obama is elected, he decimates that powerful military and disarms our nuclear weapons. Hmmm. Do I want a weak military headed by an inexperienced politician or a strong military headed by an inexperienced politician??
    Because that is what the REAL choice is.
    Oh, and one more thing. Palin is under investigation for a possible ethics violation. Did she try to have her brother-in-law (who threatened both her and her father and tasered his stepson) fired, and when that didn’t work, did she demote his boss, who the quit? Fair enough. But let’s put that next to Tony Rezko, Bill Ayers, 20 years of Reverend Wright and Obama’s current DOJ lawsuit brought on by a commercial he’s unhappy with (first amendment, anyone?) and see EXACTLY who is ethically challenged.

  93. Well, Empdee (is that your vacuous hip/hop name?), demigod though you may think you are your words have still clearly marked you as a hypocrite and a bigot.
    Deal with it the next time you take a shot in the mirror.
    Full of Piss & Vinegar

  94. Oh, I much more prefer tough debate with Cathar. At least he’s a person of substance.
    Strike three, EmpDee. Feel free to play with yourself. I’m no longer willing to stand at the plate while you throw into the bleachers. The target will always be the strike-zone. I’ll be happy to let you play again in the future, that is when you can wield a better line than “what can be better than god?”
    Say “hi” to Homer for me…the one who dwells in Springfield.
    See you later, Toots.

  95. Sorry PissBull, you wouldn’t know a tough debate if you were sitting in the front row. I like me, so would you if I didn’t remind you of — YOU!

  96. I think there is a strong chance that Sarah Palin may follow the route of Harriet Miers, in that she may “decide” that she doesn’t want the honor of being the nominee.

  97. “Oh, I much more prefer tough debate with Cathar. At least he’s a person of substance.”
    You have no balls. You fight like a girl and you’re a quitter! Come on. Step up to the plate and take it like a SheMan!

  98. “Let’s see. If McCain dies, he leaves Palin commander-in-chief of a powerful military, surrounded by top-notch military advisers. If Obama is elected, he decimates that powerful military and disarms our nuclear weapons.
    Hmmm. Do I want a weak military headed by an inexperienced politician or a strong military headed by an inexperienced politician?? Because that is what the REAL choice is.”
    Posted by zoeg | August 31, 2008 1:21 PM
    zeog, are you serious? Do you think it is a goal of Obama’s to actually “decimate” our military?
    That reminds me of the tact of taking an Obama position (say, not being if favor of promoting nuclear energy) and exaggerating it to the extreme (saying Obama is opposed to nuclear energy).
    Do all issues need to be drawn to those extremes?

  99. NJ Guy,
    Extreme? Okay – perhaps I could have been more thoughtful in my use of “decimate…” but after re-watching the video linked to below, I’m not so sure.
    This is what provoked my previous post, if you want to hear Obama in his own words:
    So – he will insist on an agreement that no one in the world develop nuclear weapons. And Iran (for one) will sign on because…oh, I know! Because we’ll go FIRST! Are you seriously comfortable with that? And since no one is going to do anything about Iran developing nuclear weapons, do ya think missile defense is a good idea? Obama seems to believe that his “tough, direct” diplomacy will work. That’s a poor strategy, coupled with defanging our military.
    I believe our government’s first priority is to protect its citizens, and I’m not sure Senator Obama agrees. I’m certainly not comfortable with his tough-talk policy. Talk means nothing without a strong military. I can’t wait to see what our military would like after the recommendations of his “Independent Defense Priority Review Board.”
    Actually, I’d rather not find out, which is one reason I’m voting McCain-Palin.

  100. A young woman at work told me recently that “Bros before Hos.” I think this time out the “Ho” comes before “the Bro.”

  101. Cathar, I don’t disagree with you one bit. And I didn’t exactly use “fundamentalist Christian” as a slur.
    It happens that none of the sects you mentioned above are currently well represented at the highest levels of our government. By my count, we’ve had exactly 1 Catholic President, and 0 of any of the others.
    However, there is no denying that in the last 10 to 15 years, evangelistic Christians in particular have emerged as a hugely powerful force in national politics. As I said before, I respect others’ rights to their views, and we are all blessed to live in a nation where we are allowed to worship, or not, as we wish.
    That said, there is supposed to be a separation between church and state in this country. Whether Palin suggests that education on ‘intelligent design’ should be mandated or optional, it has absolutely no place being taught in publicly funded schools, because there is no science to back it up. If people wish to teach their children that set of beliefs as part of a religious tradition, they are more than welcome to do so–outside of public school.
    Likewise, I respect that many people of many religions believe strongly that abortion is a sin. However, I do not believe that those people have the right to legislate what everyone in the United States should do.
    I happen to be pro-choice. I am also anti-abortion. I personally believe it should be an absolute last resort, and I support programs and education to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.
    However, I do not feel it is my place, nor any other citizen’s, to tell a woman who was raped or who was the victim of incest that she may not terminate her pregnancy. And until we reach a point in our culture where children given up for adoption will have good families (not just white children, but all children), I think it is hypocritical for our government to suggest to young women that their unwanted child will be better off if he or she is carried to term and given up.
    I can empathize with how heartbreaking the idea of abortion is for those who believe that life begins on day one of conception. I truly do. However, we live in a nation of many beliefs and it is not the place of the few to legislate health or life choices for the many based upon religion.

  102. And, Cathar, if you doubt that McCain’s selection was motivated by a desire to placate Christian conservatives, you should read this article from today’s Times:
    McCain wanted Lieberman as his running partner
    A quote from the article that discusses McCain’s extremely hasty and last-minute selection of Palin:
    “At the very least, the process reflects Mr. McCain’s history of making fast, instinctive and sometimes risky decisions. ‘I make them as quickly as I can, quicker than the other fellow, if I can,’ Mr. McCain wrote, with his top adviser Mark Salter, in his 2002 book, Worth the Fighting For. ‘Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.'”
    If McCain is OK with living with the consequences of his mistakes based on hasty decisions, that’s great… but should we all have to live with them?

  103. It’s dishonest to reduce all arguments against legalized abortion to religious ones. Particularly as the word “religion” has become an anathema; hint that it’s part of anyone’s position and watch “separation of church and state” overwhelm rational discussion.
    There is a social argument against abortion – the belief that it’s murder. If you believe life begins at conception – which is not necessarily a religious view – it’s not a stretch to then consider abortion as murder. And really – if the egg and the sperm meet and the cells start reproducing, how is that not life?
    That said, I don’t believe abortion should be illegal. I do believe life begins at conception. How do I reconcile that? I don’t. I’m conflicted. Everything isn’t as cut and dried as I’d like.

  104. You mean McCain actually CONSIDERED his base when he chose his running mate? You mean he chose someone that he thought might help him get elected? That scoundrel!
    I’m sure Senator Obama didn’t choose Senator Biden to make up for his own lack of experience, particularly on foreign policy. And I’m even MORE certain that if Biden held pro-life views Obama would have chosen him anyway.
    Picking Palin at the culmination of what the Times wrote was a five month process is hasty? And because McCain said six years ago that he makes hasty decisions, that means EVERY decision he makes is hasty?
    At least McCain knows how to make decisions. He doesn’t consider them “above his pay grade.”

  105. zoeg, you and I agree that the abortion issue is complicated and fraught with challenges.
    It’s dishonest to reduce all arguments against legalized abortion to religious ones. Particularly as the word “religion” has become an anathema; hint that it’s part of anyone’s position and watch “separation of church and state” overwhelm rational discussion.
    It’s not at all dishonest to say that those most vehement about denying women the right to choose abortion, and that those who have had the biggest politial impact on that issue, are motivated by their religion.
    There is a social argument against abortion – the belief that it’s murder. If you believe life begins at conception – which is not necessarily a religious view – it’s not a stretch to then consider abortion as murder. And really – if the egg and the sperm meet and the cells start reproducing, how is that not life?
    Yes. When cells begin to reproduce, life exists. I’m not going to tiptoe into the thicket of trying to argue when a fetus is a feeling, sentient being. I don’t know. But in my opinion, it is a very extreme and unfounded view that–for instance–women should be denied the morning-after pill because that would be murder. Yet many very religious people believe this. (And, in fact, some pharmacists will not dispense the morning-after pill based upon their religious beliefs.)
    At least McCain knows how to make decisions. He doesn’t consider them “above his pay grade.”
    This is a cheap shot, and undermines your comments above that were largely well reasoned. The question posed to Obama about when life begins was ridiculous. Frankly, if a presidential candidate claimed to know exactly when life begins, he or she would lose credibility with me immediately. I appreciated that Obama didn’t pander to religious voters and gave the only possible ‘right’ answer (which, even with politicians, is sometimes ‘I don’t know.’)
    The scientific community proposes a variety of answers to the question of when human life begins.
    Here is just one, from the 2006 edition of Developmental Biology:
    In contrast to the genetic view, the embryological view states that human life originates not at fertilization but rather at gastrulation. Human embryos are capable of splitting into identical twins as late as 12 days after fertilization resulting in the development of separate individuals with unique personalities and different souls, according to the religious view. Therefore, properties governing individuality are not set until after gastrulation. This view is endorsed by a host of contemporary scientists such as Renfree (1982), Grobstein (1988) and McLaren. This view of when life begins has also been adopted as the official position of the British government. The implications of a belief in this view include giving support to controversial forms of contraception including the “morning after” pill and contragestational agents as long as they are administered during the first two weeks of pregnancy.
    Other theories define life as starting earlier to much later. That debate question put Obama in a lose-lose position: he could either discredit himself and give an answer unsupported by any unified or proven scientific concept, or he could say ‘I don’t know.’ I respect him much more for saying the latter.

  106. Gov. Palin has no experience? Alaska borders two countries-Canada and Russia. Palin is the VP pick.
    Your man Obama, has done NOTHING!!
    “Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It?s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.
    As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her exposure to classified material may rival even Biden’s.
    She’s also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security’s counterterrorism plans.
    Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country’s defense. Given Alaska’s proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don’t even know about”.

  107. Also, zoeg, your post re why McCain chose Palin is silly. Of course politicians consider their base when making decisions. My comments on that point were directed to Cathar, who had suggested that Muslims, Amish, 7th-day Adventists, etc. had some influence with regard to the issue of abortion rights.
    McCain runs his campaign largely on the so-called virtue of his character and judgment. The man treated his first wife like dirt (and that’s fair game to discuss for the supposed ‘family values’ party), is notoriously bad-tempered and impulsive in his comments, and admitted in his own writings that ‘Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.’
    Give. Me. A. Break. If Obama had written those words about himself, they’d have been plastered all over 3500 commercials and spewed ad nauseum by Rush and colleagues. Yes, they are relevant because they speak to his judgment.

  108. Very nice, montclairgirl. We now know that you can cut and paste from a right-wing blog called Blackfive.
    Got any actual facts to support a word of that?

  109. KatebirdRex,
    Cheap shot? Okay. I admit it; I couldn’t resist!
    His answer really irked me. He DIDN’T say, “I don’t know” or “I’ve thought about it and I can’t decide.” It was a non-answer, and too clever by half. I think he gets away with that a lot. And while I agree with you that those most motivated to oppose abortion are religious, I just wanted to point out that they drown out those who make a reasoned argument for social, not religious, reasons.
    I’m not interested in whether either candidate thinks life begins at conception. I’m not religious, but I think life begins at conception for the reasons I stated earlier: Sperm and egg meet, sperm and make more cells, the cycle has begun. If Obama had answered, “While I understand no one knows for sure, I believe it does” why would he lose his credibility? He was asked what he believes, not what the final declarative answer is. I also don’t see how that would be pandering to the religious right given his staunch views on abortion.
    I’m cynical enough to think his answer WAS designed to pander to the religious right. If he admitted he believed life began at conception he’d catch even more hell for his for his extreme views on abortion. If he said it didn’t, he would have been denounced as Godless and his religious views questioned. Hence his non-answer. I’m certain he wants NO spotlight on his religious views because too much religion will anger his base and too little will anger the religious right, who, like it or not, he IS courting.

  110. Actually, I thought my post about “why” McCain chose Palin was kinda funny. It was meant to address what sounded to me like your horror that he would try to appeal to Christian Conservatives.
    I believe it’s OBAMA who’s running on his character and judgment. What else does he have? And there’s slim pickins where’s that’s concerned, too. Yes, anything he says will be torn apart by conservative radio, who is preaching to the choir. Those SAME things will be ignored by the MSM, who are far more powerful.

  111. Let’s get to brass tacks, Obama is less likely to start a new war or maintain an occupation for 100 years. If McCain is elected where are we going to be in 4 years? Probably still occupying Iraq and with the possibility of a new war somewhere else. Let’s not forget that if McCain is elected we will see a continuation of the economic policy that has trashed the US economy.
    Bush’s legacy is McCain’s mandate.

  112. this has been most entertaining to read, thanks baristanet! wow, sarah palin is certainly causing a reaction. guess it was a good move on mccain’s part. and for those of you who don’t seem to get it, allow me to explain: no, she isn’t anything remotely like hillary. that’s the whole point. she does look like sally field, though.. and the room 222 character referenced in an earlier post lol! she’s a brilliant choice!!!

  113. Let’s review. What has occurred in the last eight years:
    3000 people died on September 11th 2001
    3000 people died on August 23rd 2005 in New Orleans.
    4000 American soldiers died in Iraq.
    Wow, that is a string of bad luck.

  114. I am amused by the fact that the social conservative base is so happy right now. The fact is, the social conservatives lost this election back when McCain won the primary race. Regardless of the tactics that McCain is employing to get elected, he is not a true conservative. His strategy here is a safe one – if he does not get elected, he played nice with the Republican party and maintains their support as he continues as a Senator. If he wins, this is the last elected post that he will hold and we will really see his maverick side. I don’t agree with all of his political positions, but I do believe that he would govern with his conscience. Do you think Palin, who he met once before her selection, will have any meaningful policy influence? Not likely. McCain could end up being the most centrist President that the US has seen in decades.

  115. Review this, lasermike026:
    We lose more Americans to abortion EVERY day in the United States than we’ve lost in seven years of war. Pelosi, Kennedy, Biden, and Leahy, ALL of whom support unrestricted abortion to the tune of over 4000 “procedures” every day in America alone.
    Not saying that women shouldn’t have choice, but let’s do what we can to slow down the carnage in war and in the name of women’s rights.

  116. I voted for Hillary in the primaries. However, as soon as she lost, I threw my full support behind Senator Obama. That said, this lifelong Democrat must applaud and commend Senator McCain for curtailing the GOP convention because of Gustav (but I will still be voting for Senator Obama).

  117. I think Sarah Palin is gonna be the Clay Aiken of politics… the underdog who at first seems so unlikely but ends up kickin’ ass. She’s going to win over many people with her sheer moxxy. She’s a mom AND a governor, let’s not forget. Besides, we all know PTA parents who would make great VP’s, don’t we??? Of course we do!

  118. McCain could end up being the most centrist President that the US has seen in decades.
    All things considered, that might be the best outcome of a McCain presidency.

  119. There is a debate on when life begins. The people I’m referring to we know had life. Many policies and decisions lead to their deaths. Why? Who made them? Who supported them? Who is more likely keep doing it again and again? The next 4 years are going to be the very critical. I don’t think the old man and the young chippy have what it takes.
    But lets talk about something more important. George W. Bush has effectively made the Constitution and laws irrelevant. When one man can decide what is constitutional and what is lawful that is tyranny. If McCain is elected that would further solidify the damage made to our republic.
    When I say Bush’s legacy is McCain’s mandate, I’m saying it for good reason.
    Bush’s legacy is McCain’s mandate.

  120. Bin Laden plotted the attacks of September 11th on Clinton’s watch.
    We have not been attacked since then, and terrorists attacks around the world have gone down:
    While I recognize distortion is the refuge of the thoughtless, let’s look at what John McCain ACTUALLY said in reference to staying in Iraq for 100 years: “We’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me, as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed.”
    Bush Derangement Syndrome is a real phenomenon. For instance, it causes some to see building a democracy as an “occupation.”
    You ROCK BoomShockaLockaLocka!

  121. Well, once we get out of Gustav without losing even more lives, the ensuing politics promise to be the most interesting in a generation. This is THE presidential election of century and Obama is a thrilling public speaker, no doubt about it. I love the guy simply for the fact he did a swift job of getting Hillary out of the picture. But, if we are attacked a la 9-11 between now and November, it’s going to be McCain all the way. Without question. And then Michael Moore can make a movie about how the US Government staged another attack so McCain would win… I’m telling you, I can see Sally Field starring as Palin.. I can see Will Smith as BarackStar…

  122. Can’t win a debate with that logic. We get attacked, we go to war is Afghanistan, stop, then go to war with Iraq. Some time in the future we are attacked and McCain wins the election. How is it you keep voting for the same idiots over and over again. You’re like a burn victim with a ten second memory.

  123. First of all, katebird, I have never visited a site called blackfive. I found this info on a news site. After all, isn’t everything in the press pure fact ala Obama?
    I was on the Hillary blog a while ago and let me tell you, they have no love for Obama. As a matter of fact, I quite enjoyed their bashing of him especially the rumor about her youngest son being the child of her 17 year old daughter. Obama needs to head that one off ASAP or he will lose a lot of female votes. His ship is sinking…slowly but surely.

  124. It doesn’t matter if you can’t follow the logic, lasermike, but trust me when I tell you that if we are attacked before the November election, Obama will not win. In a few years he might, but most of the US would vote for McCain if we were all in the same mindset we were united in after the 9-11 attacks. It isn’t a difficult logic to follow, really. It is what it is. Americans will feel safer with McCain than with Obama.

  125. Right now we are being “attacked” by a hurricane and Bush & Cheney are flying to Texas to blow it back out to sea. All hail the conquering President!

  126. Oh, I understand completely. Life is an imaginary game and no matter how f***ed up your logic is you going to keep playing it. Your team is batting 0 but you’ll just keep on swinging.
    Bet seriously, you not from around here are you. What a minute, cheese? Is that you cheese?

  127. I think there is a very strong chance that Sarah Palin will follow the route of Harriet Miers and “decide” that she doesn’t want the honor of being the VP nominee.
    (I know I am repeating myself here, but I have increased my degree of certainty over the past few hours).

  128. I’m from NYC, dear. I’m not “cheese”… I’d like to think of myself more like “ice cream”… Okay, so let’s play fair, how would you describe yourself if you were in the foodgroup “DAIRY”? GO! You have ten seconds… it’ll be like a Rorschach test into the lasermike mind 😉

  129. MG, you’re link…
    Ground Missile Defense. It doesn’t work and it costs billions. Oh yeah, that’s a winner.

  130. Pecorino.
    Question for you, 10 seconds, what is a New Yorker doing blogging on a Montclair blog?

  131. I live in Montclair and NYC, NYC. You know what is most amusing about you radical liberal types? You can’t fathom that anyone from the area might have a different viewpoint. You’re all about diversity and tolerance, but you can’t tolerate anyone with differing viewpoints, so how liberal are you really? How inclusive are you? Not so much, after all. Very interesting. Highly amusing.

  132. I’m in it for the republic. I don’t care what your political position is. The problem is your party is on a bloody rampage and it has to stop. Empire or republic? You may only choose one.

  133. LaserDope,
    Sprechen Sie Deutsch dum eisel?
    With your logic and commitment to freedom and security we’d all be speaking German. What a putz.
    Your party was party to the party in the great sandbox. Oh, now blame the bad intelligence part on the guy the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously blamed for all the bad intel…Bill Clinton’s own….(drum roll please) George Tenet (DCI).
    Or did you forget those points Laserbeam?
    In your pipe and smoke it!

  134. That’s right Mikey…I went with a WWII ref. Can you grasp the parallel?
    I’ll send you a coloring book to help you figure it out.
    Matriculated Masticaor (Woof)

  135. By the way BoomShockaLockaLoca – I’m a NYC transplant, too! Nice to meet ya – hey, what are the odds of finding TWO New Yorkers living in Montclair who aren’t liberals?
    I admire your tenacity and good humor while responding to lasermike. He doesn’t make much sense to me, and his hyperbole and rhetoric are so yesterday that I haven’t bothered…actually, truth is I’ve been too busy with my bloody rampage, trashing the constitution as I go, to care!!
    Keep it up – I’m becoming a real fan!

  136. Right, you two keep patting yourselves on the back. That’ll make the 10,000 American deaths go away or 500,000+ dead Iraqi civilians. The sad thing is in your minds it has gone away. But, no sense talking to idiots. So long suckers.

  137. I cannot believe that any woman – regardless of religious affiliation would support a ticket which includes Palin. Including Sarah Palin as the VP has reinforced that I will not vote Republican this election. As Katha Pollitt (THE NATION) pointed out regarding Palin’s nomination, “After a stint as the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, a town of less than 8000, and barely two years as governor of a state with more grizzly bears than people? She makes Obama’s resume look as thick as Winston Churchill’s.”
    “Here’s the reality: Palin is a rightwing-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion for any reason whasoever, except to save the life of the girl or woman. No exception even for rape, incest, or the health of the woman. No exception for a ten-year-old, a woman carrying a fetus with no chance of life, a woman on the edge of suicide– let alone the woman who is not ready to be a parent, who is escaping domestic violence, who is already stretched to the limit as a single mother. She wants to force over one million women and girls a year to give birth against their will and judgment. She wants to use the magnificent freedom the women’s movement has won for her at tremendous cost and struggle–the movement that won her the right to run those marathons and run Alaska — to take away the freedom of every other woman in the country.”
    “Her selection does not tell us McCain is a “maverick” who is just stringing the Christian right along, wink-wink. It tells us that he has thrown in his lot with James Dobson, the Family Research Council, the Catholic hierarchy and others for whom criminalizing abortion is the number-one issue. His record of votes against abortion and birth control–125 votes out of 130 in his congresssional and Senate career– apparently wasn’t quite enough for them. By choosing Palin, he wins their enthusiastic support.”
    “McCain is gambling that women will vote their gender, and not their interests.”
    “I expect pro-choice women will see through this gambit pretty fast. If not, we really are as dumb as he thinks we are.”
    Some feel Palin is to be respected for her PERSONAL decision to not abort her daughter but the point is she had a choice and would if given the opportunity take that choice away. By the way – – who takes care of her daughter when she went back to work just 3 days after giving birth?

  138. Katebird? What left wing liberal site did Montclair89 copy and paste from?? or don’t you care? I’m guessing that you don’t since your views line up with theirs.
    Montclair89-get your facts straight, Palin had a boy with DS, not a girl!!

  139. 89,
    Well, there you go again!
    In the same breath, Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the typical Democrat ploy at work. Vilify a Republican by invoking the mantra of “(they’re) a…Rightwing (sic)-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion….”
    Wow, what an epiphany you must have had 89 to come up with that one. Is 89 your age because this must have been a result from an attack of your early onset Alzheimer’s. I’ll bet you’ll repeat that same line 500 more times before November even gets here. Hope the staff at the Home can endure it.
    Oh, I really enjoyed the pull out of the hat the “scare the shit out of them by accusing her of denying abortions to everyone in the land” card. Listen, Dope-on-a-Rope, the Law of the Land is that abortion is legal. Every time you dumb-asses see a conservative candidate coming you play this same trick. Has any of them changed Roe v. Wade? NOPE. They have appointed Justices that you may challenge but no Republican candidate has called for the changing of the law. So, “Up Yours” and stop playing Chicken Little.
    As far as not getting your vote…PLEASE! There was no way in Hell the Republicans ever would have gotten your vote. If they cut you in half they’d probably find Terry McAuliffe’s name tattooed to your colon and Howard Dean’s famous “Yippee” stitched into your stomach. Nobody here is fooled by your rhetoric.
    Oh, the person who is probably caring for Gov. Palin’s daughter is probably some caretaker transplanted from a previous Montclair family who had her doing the same–maybe it was your great granddaughter’s? Hmmmmm.

  140. Montclairgirl,
    You, Zoeg, and Boom all rock. Love your style. Keep up the good fight of just getting some of these folks here to do a little more critical thinking. I would love at least one person say to any of the three of you, “You know, that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.”
    Instead, every Democrat or Liberal expects Republicans or Conservatives to compromise and to see it their way. It doesn’t seem to be any more of a two way street than it does a level playing field.
    But we’ll keep trying.

  141. Mikey, it’s Labor Day weekend and you clearly didn’t take my kindly intentioned device to rest both your fevered wee brain and your narrow, flinty heart. I am much disappointed, I suspect we’ll have one etiolated, weary indeed laserboy come Election Day.
    But how come, laserninny, you always post casualty figures? What about the millions and millions of Iraqis (and Kurds if you wish to separate the two groups) and Afghans who have in fact been delivered from the clutches of a very bad guy? That never occurs to you (as with so much else) does it, you hopeless nitwit?
    There’s a phrase that comes to mind when I read your posts, lasernutter – actually, there are manmy phrases that come to mind, and strangely enow none are terribly complimentary to your brainpower – and it’s “biting at the grave.” A grave you seemingly wish to embrace. For all your attempts at fuss and feathers, your basic stance is one of total nihilism. It’s scary to note how completely a downer you are. (This attitude is not going to net you a low-level civil service job, let alone a cabinet post, should Obama win the election.)
    Oh well, the Mets remain in first and the Tide rolled over Clemson the other night, right, mikeypal? Keep your aspidistra flying!

  142. Cathar
    Sorry to use an oldie but it’s a goody.
    Keep the fun going Cathar, you da’ man.
    Ruff, Woof and Cough (from the hard chuckling)

  143. KatebirdRex, I did not assume that you personally posted the term “fundamentalist Christian” as a slur. I meant so many others. So I apologize if you took it incorrectly.
    It is certainly evident from 4 or more years posting and reading here, however, that few if any on this site spend much time trying to understand what fundamentalist Christianity, let alone Christianity in general, actually consists of. There’s also more than a whiff of rote anti-Catholicism (“liberal anti-Semitism” as the phrase goes) here. At best, folks’ idea of Catholicism is that “nice fellow” Martin Sheen.
    And it does not matter much that we’ve only had one Papist President so far, I think. In fact we might have had two if the KKK and its uniformly Protestant operatives within the Democratic party hadn’t worked so hard to scuttle Al Smith.
    As for your bringing up the issue of incest as a reason to allow abortion, however, while I might agree with you there, the truth is that such incidences are very low in the schema of things. (Even in the “hollers” of coal-mining Appalachia.) Yet are trotted out regularly. I’ve read more than one feminist-oriented anthology of reminiscences by women who’ve had abortions, in them have never seen a recollection of incest. (Although the intentionally scandalous Kathryn Harrison did write a “non-fiction” book about her supposed affair with her minister father, who denies it, and in any case said purported contact did not result in a pregnancy, which suggests to me that even if this affair did happen, Harrison always had her eye on the NYTimes best-seller list and her ‘protection’ close at hand in her handbag. So much for the ardor of the incestuous moment.)

  144. zoeg (sorry, spelled your name wrong last time) – thanks for the courtesy of a response, back at 4:29PM.
    But I do not think that that short film clip demonstrates a desire to weaken the US military.
    You go on to say – “I believe our government’s first priority is to protect its citizens, and I’m not sure Senator Obama agrees.”
    Your logic seems to be that more military is spending is needed and that the candidate that promises the most is the best candidate, while one who wants to limit growth (or cut wasteful spending, as Obama states in that message) is completely opposed to having any type of strong military at all.
    As out military budget nearly equals that of the rest of the world combined (45% of the global total) it may be that we are actually spending a bit too much on that area for our own good.
    Your rhetoric here is too extreme for me. By over-stating the issue I don’t find your view to be very very credible or reasonable.

  145. Laser(with no light emitting diode)Mikey,
    You do realize that we loose more young men and women in our 5 largest cities in one year than we have in a WAR zone? Who cries for them? Who is calling to do something serious about saving their lives? Have you and your anti-war friends done anything with the same kind of fervor that you have done against OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom)? NOPE. Nailed again, huh?
    Now, LackingreallightMikey, I have a “dog in this fight.” My oldest son is on his way to Iraq in his first tour of duty. Go ahead and tell me that this is all ethereal rhetoric and I’ll knock you into Passaic County (not physically, though I might be tempted to do so).
    Those numbers that you parade around are real and everyone, including each U.S. president that has held the office and put young people in harm’s way knows it. For you to suggest that any president goes to War casually is ludicrous. Besides that, it is Congress who takes us to war. Without Congressional approval it is simply a PSRC and there are limits on the number of personnel who may be deployed and for how long.
    Be careful what you suggest, intimate, and overtly state…there may be real people out here who are DIRECTLY affected by this war (and not just monetarily).
    Freedom is something that we treasure as Americans and I am DAMN proud my son has an opportunity to bring the chance of a life of freedom to those who have never known it.
    Knock that battery off my shoulder if you dare.

  146. The Democrats continue to use their already-tired talking point that McCain picked Governor Palin to get the “women’s” vote. Since McCain, they argue, chose her to get your vote as a woman, don’t vote for her because…she’s a woman! And if THAT bit of gender politics isn’t enough, lets add abortion into the mix because if you’re a woman, that’s the issue you vote on. THAT is more cynical than anything McCain has done. The Democrats have reduced women to gender voters who not only vote for women, but for “good” women, i.e., those who support abortion. After all, we couldn’t possibly care about national security or the economy as long as our daughters have the “right” to abort.
    They have painted, with righteous indignation, abortion as THE TOP WOMEN’S ISSUE, and since they are the Abortion Party, we women have NO CHOICE (because choice, really, is all about the womb) but to vote for them.
    THEY are the party that is insulting to women.
    It has been an effective strategy, to a degree – look at Montclair89, who “can’t believe any woman” would vote for Palin because she doesn’t support abortion. She is one voice among millions of women who have bought the idea that the primary role of government is to guarantee equal abortion access to all.
    I find the Democratic party offensive. As I’ve said earlier, I am not in favor of overturning Roe V. Wade, which, by the way, would not make abortion “illegal,” but would turn the decision back to the states. But the Democrats and their leaders are running around acting like John McCain just declared jihad on abortion.
    And guess what – most of us realize that Governor Palin is NOT Hillary Clinton!! Can you believe how many of us are HAPPY about that?? Well, we are.
    Interesting, too, how Montclair89 rolled her feminist agenda back about 100 years when questioning the fact that Governor Palin returned to work three days after giving birth. Would she have asked that question if it was Sal Palin? Hopefully none of her feminist friends will have caught that faux-pas ’cause she might lose some of her fem-cred.

  147. montclairgirl: actually, 89 did attribute her quote. Read her post again and perhaps you will be able to find that before you hastily post another comment.
    Pitbull, zoeg, boomwhatever, et al: I’ve actually been out, like, enjoying life while you all have been high-fiving each other for your oh-so-brilliant ‘critical thinking.’
    I’ll leave you to your circle jerk. I’m all for learning something new, but there’s not much here among all the hot air and rhetoric.

  148. Zoeg,
    Thanks for picking up on my post and doing a much better job of running with it. “89” is what most women who vote Democrat appear to be-tied to the pro-choice issue (please flamers, notice I said most and appear, not all and are).
    Interesting also how you caught her hypocrisy on Governor Palin’s choice in having a child and returning to work. I do hope you know that all women of the 21st Century should either abort their children or have them and then stay at home and let the nanny care for them while the mothers all meet at Starbucks or at the “Y” for their daily pilates/spinning class. At least, that’s the way Gr.Ma “89” suggests it should be.
    Chewing Ferociously

  149. cathar: I appreciate that you post things that make me think.
    I too doubt that *most* abortions are due to rape or incest. But some are. And I doubt we know the true numbers on that because women experience tremendous shame in these cases and they are under-reported.
    Would you say, then, that even if that represented a small number of women (or, in fact, girls), that they should be forced to carry their unwanted babies to term?
    Clearly beliefs on this issue are highly personal. I happen to believe that if a politician is running on a platform of ‘compassionate conservatism’ or the like, it vastly undermines that label to forbid women to have abortions in the cases of the mother’s health issues, rape, or incest. (I’ll put aside *all* the other cases for now and just say that. Do you disagree?)

  150. Rex,
    According to the Gutmacher Institute you do realize that 4% (the last numbers I saw) of all abortions in the US (roughly 1.6 M) are due to rape, incest, or the mother’s life is at risk?
    Now on the “compassionate conservatism” platform who says that their stand on abortion is not compassionate? That fetal mass that magically becomes a real child is an innocent by-product. No matter how hard and how strenuously you want to suppress your reason you know what I’m saying to be true. Even if conservatives caved on the RILOM percentages Democrats would still hate them.
    What’s your real point?
    Raw Meat Breath

  151. One other point before I get back to my work: Boom, I find your zeal in repeatedly suggesting that McCain would accrue political advantage from another terrorist attack on US soil to be disgusting.
    Your posts had little credibility to start with, but you undermine yourself completely by those comments.

  152. Rex,
    We’ll be the “high-fivers” you are obviously the bloviating “hot air rhetoricians”. It is clear that Chrysostom had nothing over you.
    Oh you did learn about him, didn’t you, oh blow-hearted One?
    BTW, your critical thinking is staggering. Don’t know how you’re not teaching at Bloomfield College.

  153. Any Libertarians here? If so, can you explain your interest in smaller government but willingness to vote McCain/Palin who would be the first duo to actually allow government to interfere with citizen’s actual bodies? Abortion and contraception becoming illegal? That’s the polar opposite of small government.
    If you REALLY want to see the middle class disappear and have this country turned into a monarchy where the rich elite are royalty and the rest of the country are peasants, go ahead and ban abortion and contraception.
    Please reevaluate yourselves and your party because you’re ready to vote for the opposite of the very things you claim to be the cornerstone of your beliefs.
    It always amazes me the people who claim to be patriots and For America who, rather than vote for the candidate that would be the best for the country, put their absolute refusal to vote for someone of another party over what’s best for the country. It’s a Party before Country mentality that doesn’t do anyone any good.
    Any way you slice it, there is nothing positive that would come of America by banning abortion and contraception.
    If you really believe in God, then you know he will judge you on your passing. Men cannot take the place of God in passing judgement. People who truly believe, will take it upon themselves not to practice contraception or not to abort their babies. We don’t need the government doing that for us.
    America can’t claim to be both a Judeo-Christian nation and a tolerant, diversified country where all people are welcome to practice their beliefs freely. Because the second you deny them that right and force your values and religious beliefs on them, you cease to be a free nation and become some Orwellian empire where no one is truly free.
    And whoever dismissed the death-tolls of the war by claiming we kill more Americans by abortion, you have a seriously warped sense of reality. Don’t drink the kool-aid.

  154. Sigh. OK, one more then.
    So, Pitbull… even according to your own numbers, that means that under Sarah Palin’s policies 64,000 women and girls in the US would be forced each year to carry babies to term after being raped or incested. Do you honestly believe that could be called compassionate? If one of those 64,000 were your wife, sister, mother, or daughter, would you still believe that?
    And I maintain, again, that rape and incest are likely to be vastly underreported. Here are just two sources supporting that statement.

  155. POW/WOW ’08 My other yard sign.
    I am so impressed by all the right-thinkers on Barista! I was always under the impression that Cather was our only voice. Welcome! to all of you!! We have finally woke this place up!! Keep it coming.

  156. Interesting how Governor Palin’s personal views on abortion have taken front and center stage. I’ve heard no mention of Senator McCain’s views; he is, after all, the one running for President. He believes abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest and when the health of the mother is endangered.
    Just sayin’

  157. By the way, the abortion discussion cannot be complete without the Church’s own St. Augustine who said abortion was not a sin or an act of homicide if done before the fetus has begun to grow, that being, 3 months.
    So what is it then, do Christians and Catholics who take the absolute view that abortion at any time is murder and should be illegal claim to be more devout than St. Augustine? Or know the church and God better than a Saint? I think if I stayed with the Catholic Church and begun to formulate my own opinion on abortion, I would certainly have to defer to a Saint and adopt his view. Otherwise, if I were to put my own belief on the matter above that of one of the most celebrated Saints in Catholicism, I would be practicing Pride which is one of the deadly sins.

  158. Birdie Girl,
    Again, for the lazy reader. The “Law of the Land” permits abortion. Hasn’t changed even under 8 years of Bush, 4 Years of daddy Bush, or even 8 years of Ronaldus Maximus.
    Kate–What’s your question again?
    Have no Sister, have no daughter, have no Mother (I was hatched) and What woman would ever marry someone like me?

  159. Pitbull,
    I am very sorry to hear that your son is in Iraq. You have my sympathy. He doesn’t need to go there. His sacrifice does not makes me more free. Him being in Iraq does the exact opposite, it takes away my freedom, its make my country weaker, and the campaign itself is immoral and illegal. This isn’t a war and it never was. It was an invasion against a completely defenseless country which is now under military occupation. There is no honor in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. It is not in my country’s interests to invade and occupy Iraq.
    My hope is that he lays low, never fires a bullet, and helps people while he’s there.

  160. I have never told a woman what she could do with her body and I’m sure the Democrats like Obama wouldn’t either.
    I mean other than she can’t sell her body for profit, she can’t commit suicide, she has to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle (NJ and a majority of states) and every woman has to wear a seat-belt.
    No, the government nor democratic presidential candidates would never do such heinous things and dictate what a woman can or can’t do with her body.

  161. Pitbull: my beautiful AmStaff puppy, lying at my feet, is asking you to stop using her breed’s name. You’re embarrassing her. (And yourself.)
    Go outside and play for a while. It would do you some good.

  162. Laser,
    It was not an invasion unless your talking about the action described by the military regarding its movement. It was and is a war that this Country’s politicians deemed was necessary for a variety of reasons. The bad intel (without the whack job, nut case conspiracy theorists crapola) was a debacle but one that can be laid only at Congress’ feet because they allowed Clinton to cut the size of the government through drawing down the military and the HUMINT assets of the CIA, DIA and NSA.
    While I thank you for your concern for my son and others over in Iraq I am offended (and I’m sure he would be too) by your comments regarding the work he’s laying his life on the line for.
    (Analogy–Oh, I support you but I hate the company you work for and the piece of crap products you produce)
    It doesn’t work, Mikey, most Soldiers and Marines hate you and the language you use to try and help bring them home early. It’s the wrong approach. But I bet you find solace thinking you’re doing the right thing.
    Hoping God Things for Jon & his soldiers

  163. I can’t believe I’m allowing myself to be sucked into this idiocy… but OK. Here you go. Try to follow along, PB.
    This is a thread about Sarah Palin. Hence, I’m talking about Sarah Palin. Clearly, she was chosen by McCain for 2 strategic reasons: 1) she is a woman. 2) she is as far right as they come, and therefore placates the extreme social conservatives who have been lukewarm on McCain to date.
    Who has control over ‘the law of the land’ when it comes to Roe v Wade, PB? It’s the Supreme Court. That’s right. Who appoints new judges to the Supreme Court? That’s right. The President does.
    This is relevant in the case of Sarah Palin because McCain is 72 and has had several bouts with an aggressive form of cancer. And even if he were elected and remained President for his full term, his selection of Palin shows that he is beholden to those extreme right social conservatives, and that would most certainly influence any judicial appointments he’d make himself.
    I didn’t have a question for you. But there’s your answer.
    Also, I’m sorry to break it to those of you who bought into that Washington Post article planted by McCain’s campaign manager suggesting that Palin was fully vetted… but there are articles popping up every half hour by journalists digging into this story that suggest the precise opposite. My prediction: this will wind up being a huge embarrassment for McCain.
    I give it a max of 3 weeks to blow up.

  164. Rex (a.k.a. Toots 2),
    Am outside on the deck with my two dogs.
    Don’t care what your dog thinks. And I don’t really give two sh*ts what you think.
    Growl Snarl

  165. Montclair Girl,
    That really made me laugh. If I wasn’t already married to a beautiful woman (whose voting for Obama) I’d ask you out.
    woof woof

  166. Right, PB. You don’t give two shits about what I think, and that’s why you’ve felt compelled to post a response to each of my comments here.
    I feel extremely sorry for your wife. (Am in disbelief that you have one, actually.)

  167. Pitbull,
    What you have stated in your first paragraph is simply not true. Rumsfeld chose to reduce the number of soldiers to send to Iraq. The Pentagon and Bush administration knew that Iraq had no defenses. US forces swept into Iraq very quickly and received very little resistance.

  168. LaserMikey,
    I used to teach National Military Strategy and Crisis Action Planning to senior officers and senior enlisted officers at the Air Mobility Warfare Center. What you cite is only part of the story. I’ll have to enlighten you another time as I am getting ready to do some more serious chilling (we’re having people over in a short bit–sorry).
    Have a great Labor Day.

  169. Try again, PB.
    Anyway. As I watch how all this plays out, I will be thinking of you, PB, smiling sweetly.
    Have a nice day!

  170. Hey, Katebird, I see you’re still circle-jerkin’!
    I continue to be astounded at the depth of rage at Palin’s pro-life views. An earlier poster said she is against contraception – not true. And I understand that this is a small sop to those who are staunch choice supporters, but to be clear about her position, she does think abortion should be allowed if a woman’s life is in danger (you can Google that if you don’t believe me).
    I don’t hear either her or McCain running around promising to overturn Roe V. Wade, and given that both of them make exceptions to their no-abortion stance…
    But yes, I understand the concern if you think abortion access should be unfettered. What I do NOT understand is basing one’s vote on that and that alone.

  171. Mornin’ Puss&Boots. Sorry I’m late for the party but you sound like somone tied your balls in a knot this morning. Still hung over from that last asswhoopin eh? You know what they say about leaving your dogs out of their cage while you’re away. They always get into trouble. I won’t make that mistake again, I promise.

  172. Gee Pitbull – can’t engage without personal insults or namecalling. Are you as small as your mind? Maybe you should consider doing something to alleviate your anger and do something instead of boasting.

  173. BTW – Pitbull, Boom and I were written off as being “the same sock-puppet” by Morongahela.
    Another example of the intellectual depth of the left when disagreed with!
    Keep it coming. You do a better job of proving my point than I ever could.

  174. Did Obama Lie About Born Alive Bill?
    By Joel Mowbray
    For the first time in this presidential cycle, social issues such as abortion took center stage this past week, courtesy of the candidates’ high-profile, back-to-back interviews at a mega-church last weekend.
    Yet the mainstream media only days later is starting to address what might be the biggest story in this frame: Barack Obama – whether knowingly or not – provided false information about a controversial abortion vote he made in the Illinois Senate in 2003.
    After his nationally televised interview with Pastor Rick Warren on Saturday night in Orange County, Calif., Mr. Obama sat down with Christian Broadcasting Network’s David Brody and went on the attack against pro-life activists, whom he said were “lying” about his vote to kill a bill protecting babies born alive following botched abortions.
    At issue is an Illinois bill in 2003 called the Born Alive Infants Protection Act that Mr. Obama voted against, which was modeled on federal legislation enacted the previous year declaring that in failed abortions resulting in a live birth, the baby must be given normal medical treatment. This was in response to a gruesome practice whereby abortions involving induced labor were resulting in unintended live births – and those infants were simply being left to die. It had passed the U.S. Senate without any dissent.
    Mr. Obama contended that he “would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported,” but that he voted against the 2003 Illinois bill because “that was not the bill that was presented at the state level.” Except that it was.
    As it turns out – and as even Mr. Obama’s campaign admitted Monday to the New York Sun – the National Right to Life Committee wasn’t lying; Mr. Obama was. The specific difference cited by Mr. Obama in the CBN interview was that the Illinois bill didn’t contain the federal legislation’s language explicitly stating that it would not “undermine Roe vs. Wade.” (This was not merely off-the-cuff, as the campaign had issued a written statement to CNN in June offering the same rationale.) Not only did the bill contain the exact provision from the federal bill, but Mr. Obama voted in favor of adding it as an amendment. After the state bill was changed to be almost identical to the unanimously passed federal law, Mr. Obama voted against it.
    CNN, to its credit, did report on Obama’s Illinois actions before the Democrat’s accusation that his critics were lying. The New York Times first reported on Mr. Obama’s Illinois record two weeks ago – almost 900 words into a 1,400-word piece on page A16. In a page A18 story this Wednesday dedicated solely to the controversy, the Times’ Larry Rohter carries Mr. Obama’s water, stretching to offer excuses for his vote that even Mr. Obama did not suggest until after misstating his own record last weekend.
    The highest-profile mainstream-media piece to date ran this Wednesday in The Washington Post, a page A1 article titled, “Candidates’ Abortion Views Not So Simple.” In its reporting, however, The Post seemed to dismiss the significance of Mr. Obama’s opposition to the 2003 Illinois legislation by referring to it as an “obscure law.” The Post further presents as fact the Obama position that the Illinois bill Mr. Obama opposed was solely about “pre-viable” babies. The testimony of former nurse Jill Stanek, who witnessed babies surviving botched abortions at Christ Hospital just outside Chicago, discussed babies past 20 weeks, including into the third trimester – thus not “pre-viable.”
    Though understanding the legislative process is not a common strength in political journalists, most of the reporters in question are smart enough to sift through the plentiful documentation of Mr. Obama’s voting history on the Born Alive Infants Protection Act in Illinois at the Web site of the National Right to Life Committee. Further, they could even read the simple, yet thorough, narrative of National Review’s David Freddoso, who has written two stories spelling out the timeline and Obama’s actions along the way. (Some of the reporting is adapted from his new book, “The Case Against Barack Obama.”) Mr. Obama’s camp has shifted explanations this week, now claiming that the Democrat merely wanted a provision in the bill clarifying that it would not impact existing state laws. Yet as several pro-life activists have noted, Mr. Obama was the chairman of the legislature’s health committee when the bill came up again in 2003 and easily could have offered such an amendment. He didn’t.
    Regardless of the reasons for his vote, Mr. Obama cannot say that his critics are lying. He did oppose a bill virtually identical to the one unanimously passed in the U.S. Senate. And now, five years later, he might end up paying a political price for that decision.

  175. Joel Mowbray is a columnist and this is opinion. If you want deal in facts you can find a more credible source.
    I wonder if this is a team effort. You have people that do not normally blog here who shown up all at once with a quite similar political position.

  176. DannyZo,
    Thank you for taking the time to post all that.
    Here’s a link to Obama’s actual testimony in the Illinois Senate:
    This is Obama in his own words. The relevant portions are on pages 31 – 34. His discussion of what to “do” with the babies that survive these botched abortions is somewhat chilling. He does not want a second doctor on hand to determine whether the baby should receive medical care because that would place a burden on the agreement between the abortionist and the mother (the agreement being that the baby should be dead). He can’t even bring himself to call the baby a baby – it’s ” a baby, fetus, whatever.” There’s more, but read it yourselves.
    Why is all the outrage reserved for the pro-life position, and none for this?

  177. Regarding Obama’s position on what to do with infants born alive during botched abortions, I hope by linking to his testimony I have provided a “more credible source.”

  178. No one took Arnold seriously and he’s been reelected. Worst part of this debate is the constant talk of “what a candidate should be” instead of anyone considering what a true outsider, who knows what it means to live in America could do to change perspective. Why do you have to be a lawyer by trade to be in govt?

  179. I’ve been trying to catch up on this discussion, but this one caught my eye!!!
    “As a matter of fact, I quite enjoyed their bashing of him especially the rumor about her youngest son being the child of her 17 year old daughter.”
    Please elaborate on this. I haven’t heard that yet. Anytime I hear something about Teflon Barry, it gets my attention.
    Great job!

  180. Found it. It’s a slander against Palin. I should have known better. We aren’t allowed to slander Obama.

  181. I support the right to choose and the right not to choose. I want to be the one held responsible for that choice.

  182. Lasermike,
    Please don’t feel ganged-up on by all of this. I’m kinda feeling bad that you took so much heat from me as well as from Montclairgirl, zoeg and Pitbull. We’re just relieved to know we have found kindred spirits on these topics, in this town, no less… that’s all. Don’t feel too bad because you’re in Montclair, afterall, where the majority of people think exactly as you do. You have a like-minded base in this neck of the woods, so please don’t let us ruin your Labor Day weekend. I’m going out into the beautiful sunshine and stepping away from this debate for awhile. It’s all so interesting and it’s great this forum exists! have a nice day, all!!

  183. Hey, 89,
    Whaaa. Name calling? What’s the matter? I thought you were a big old girl who can handle anyhting? Guess I was wrong.
    As far as small mindedness goes I am not the one quoting others ad infinitum (actually ad nauseum) as though that do my thinking for me. So, who is it today? Who will be your mouthpiece on this glorious day? Will it be David Rodham Gerkin (purposefully mis-spelled), will it be James Carville, or will it be Al Hunt, Margret Carlson, Mark Shields?? Who will it be. I know it will be someone else disguised as you.
    So when did you return to work after giving birth? Have you given birth or are you one who felt the ultmate act of Women’s liberation was to abort? Did you give birth in the 19th or 20th Century? And if you did return to work who watched your wee-little child (I mean post womb fetal mass)?
    Please spare me and others the lame double standard BS. You’re as full of crap as Toots and Toots2.

  184. Toots (a.k.a. EmDeeHeaded),
    “I want to be the one held responsible for that choice.”
    The first articulate and reasoned thing you’ve said so far. I do hope your held accountable for that choice. Mea maxima culpa.
    De Oppresso Liber

  185. Ahhh good to see you’ve been untied PussyCat … you forgot a couple Mea culpa’s. From what I remember we had to go through a few.

  186. Quickly, though… the tabloids are going with that crazy story that Palin’s new baby is actually her daughter’s child, but they will cease and desist on that line of speculative nonsense soon, since it is rare that a 16/17 yr old gives birth to a Downs Syndrome baby and, conversely, very common for a women in her 40’s to give birth to a DS child. The fact that Palin didn’t look like she was expecting just fuels the rumor, but I’ve worked with many women in the city who managed top executive positions while barely showing through their pregnancies. Of course, I was never so lucky as to “not show” but MANY women carry with no outward signs of a pregnacy. God Bless her for having 5 children and for achieving all she has achieved professionally. This is a TRUE example of what feminism was MEANT to foster. Think about it. A real woman who prefers wearing a garter to a jock strap and has a brain, a career and BABIES!!! Good for her!

  187. Toots,
    You actually took Latin? You went to school? No, really, quit playing?
    Better to go for the superlative instead of playing around.

  188. “The plague of mankind is the fear and rejection of diversity: monotheism, monarchy, monogamy, monomedicine. The belief that there is only one right way to live, only one right way to regulate religious, political, sexual, medical affairs is the root cause of the greatest threat to man: members of his own species, bent on ensuring his salvation, security, and sanity.” – Thomas Szasz

  189. Boom,
    Stop. Your posting almost makes me want to nominate Gloria for Sainthood (which as a Lutheran I do NOT buy into–yeah, Marty).
    Simul iustus et peccator

  190. Waco,
    “…”The plague of mankind is the fear and rejection of diversity: monotheism, monarchy, monogamy, monomedicine.”
    You failed to insert deMOcrat. Unless you think like them you are ridiculed, maligned, vilified, and counted as a neandrothal.
    Seems your quote was right.

  191. and counted as a neandrothal
    Yes, PB, you do certainly risk being counted as a neandrothal.
    You crack me up. You really do.

  192. zoeg, I really hope you’ll choose not to lump yourself in with these others, because you seem to at least devote some thought to most of your posts.
    Hey, Katebird, I see you’re still circle-jerkin’!
    I am nothing if not a procrastinator, and I’ve been trying all morning to finish a work project before our party. It’s easy to get sucked into the madness here. 🙂
    to be clear about her position, she does think abortion should be allowed if a woman’s life is in danger (you can Google that if you don’t believe me).
    I know exactly what Palin’s position is on abortion. And you’re right–she does think it should be allowed if a woman’s life is in danger. But in NO OTHER CASES. She even said explicitly in 2006 that if her 14-year-old daughter were raped, she should be forced to carry the baby to term.
    That extreme view is out of line even with the beliefs of many socially conservative voters.
    But yes, I understand the concern if you think abortion access should be unfettered. What I do NOT understand is basing one’s vote on that and that alone.
    I do not think access to abortion should be unfettered, and it is far from the single criterion I vote on. But this woman is very far out of the mainstream in her beliefs and positions, on this and other issues.
    In the end, though, I’m betting a lot of this will be moot. I predict, based on what I’m reading, that we’ll see her decline the opportunity to run within the next 3 weeks. Mark my words.
    (Of course, McCain will still have to answer for his poor judgment, but that’s another story.)

  193. Gloria, Hillary, et al are not up for sainthood, not to worry… Palin, however, is a rara avis… hopefully she’ll inspire other real women. The School of Steinem is militant and a turn off to many women and young girls. The New School of Palin is far more palatable. Okay, that’s it. I’m heading out. It’s a beautiful day, people !!!!

  194. pitbull-
    guess your friends dont like your company, and you have resorted to come back inside to blog! All kidding aside.
    I do believe that there have been a huge increase on random usernames popping up and ONLY posting on the political topics. I guess there WiFi is up and running in the regions retirement homes. That’s fine, and like Gym memberships after new years, we will see less and less of them in a 6o days.
    For all the women who are put into comprimising postions and forced to carry out their pregnancies, and dont care about over population, rape, incest, or crack babies…. At least vote agains the man who cheats on his wife and uses the word “Cunt”.
    So, would it be right to say that you girls are taking the word Cunt back, like the n-word, by showing support to McCain? Can I say that this is a cunt movement? I like it, The Cunt Party

  195. zoeg, finally–I read that pdf that you linked re Obama’s comments from 2002 regarding the “Born Alive” bill in Illinois that would have required a 2nd doctor to give an opinion as to the viability of an aborted fetus. (And, yes, I do find it difficult to type those words, and yes, I do find it distasteful.)
    You really distorted what Obama said during that discussion. First of all, he was specifically discussing an abortion due to a mother’s medical issues.
    Second, his point was that a second doctor’s opinion should not be necessary (as expressed by the Medical Society) because the first physician would obviously be obligated to provide all appropriate measures in the event that an aborted baby was in fact viable.
    He states that the real reason for that part of the bill appeared to be placing additional burden on the mother and the first doctor for choosing to terminate the pregnancy, rather than any need supported by a medical rationale.
    Don’t undermine your own arguments by distorting the facts.

  196. KatebirdRex, the issue of children resulting from incest is a tricky one, no? Are we supposed to dismiss such fetuses as merely unacceptable spawn? Or should we embrace life in such instances? Whichever, the actual instances remain rare. (Not even Selena Cross carried to term, as best I remember “Peyton Place.” But Faye Dunaway did in “Chinatown,” and the end result was Meg Tilly in “The Two Jakes.”)
    Laserfool, I too wish PitBull’s son well “over there.” But if his pulling a trigger might take out a bad guy, I’m all for it. Really, it might even HELP others over there. One of your problems (and you have so many, I know) is that you never think of such hard realities. But then, your entire grumpy posting persona seems purposely calculated to ensure you never, ever have a date for Saturday night. Or even the possibility of securing an even semi-amenable sheep, if it has to come to that (and I’m quite sure it does).
    Wacourson, to quote Thomas Szasz is probably a bit too much (save perhaps in the warped universe of laserboy types). A shrink who spent most of his professional career disclaiming most everything about psychiatry is not the most reliable source. And “The Myth of Mental Illness,” his seeming ‘masterwork,’ is hardly an ur-text for anything. Plus, he wrote mostly for National Review when he wrote for magazines, and I doubt very much that the liberals who infest this site would really appreciate that one.

  197. Jimmy,
    I really don’t think you need to keep using the “C U Next Tuesday” reference and I also don’t think you want to go there with the “cheating on his wife” part. It seems to me that every candidate is human. Some have tempers that they need to do a better jon controlling. And wasn’t it your party that kept saying there was no harm no foul in the other party was a consenting adult?
    Dude, you really are a piece of work. But if you’re searching for a denouncement of McCain based upon those criteia–then how many others who became president could be disqualified based upon your litmus test? Oh, if we only knew. McCain’s fault was that it was done in public.

  198. And jimmytown, while you probably naively imagine that you are evincing both verbal and political bravado above (and with the pretext of “exposing” the Republican Presidential candidate, no, you’re not. You really just coming off as a base showoff of a numbskull.

  199. Should read “You’re really….” (Lest I sound like lasermikey, who’s never seen a simple prose sentence resistant to mangling in his own very special way.)

  200. You can go through text book history and prove your points. But to keep this topical, we need to center our attention on the election at hand, and the compare the candidates.
    You are right, its not about wether or not you have a temper, but how you handle and control said temper in public. This is a public figure, and a world public figure; representing the both of us.
    So far, its been McCain’s experience to not learn from his mistakes, and only to “live with them”. I dont want 4 more years of this. Obama wont screw things up more than they are now. His last world tour was welcomed by 200,000 foreigners waving an American Flag. When was the last time you saw that? Call him a celebrity, but admit that Celebrities have influence. ie: Regan

  201. “Unless you think like them you are ridiculed, maligned, vilified, and counted as a neandrothal.” (sic)
    Yes, Pitbull: it is a scandal how such left-wing pinko libdems like Anne Coulter, Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh “ridicule, malign and vilify” good, solid Conservative patriotic folk.

  202. Just got back and thought it appropriate to post this – Palin’s daughter is five months pregnant.
    I realize this is throwing meat to the wolves, but I’ll say this.
    The central point of this is that she will NOT have an abortion.
    It also lays the rest to the nasty rumor that Palin’s baby is really her daughter’s baby.
    That said…can’t wait for the onslaught.

  203. Katebird – Yeah, I know how tough it can be to pass up a cheap shot. You did, after all, call me on one earlier!
    I don’t think I’ve distorted Obama’s testimony. The whole reason the bill came up was because Jill Stanek realized the babies that survived botched abortions were being left to die. What’s left to argue about? Since they were being left to die, the Senate was debating whether specific legislation was necessary to make it clear they must be kept alive. The point of having a second doctor available was to keep the abortionist honest. After all, s/he would have an interest in the baby not surviving. From what I read, Obama was more concerned about the “burden” that would be placed on the mother and doctor if the second doctor deemed the baby viable. What did he mean by “burden?” That the baby would survive?
    I’m having a hard time seeing this from anything other than the point of view that if the baby is alive, every effort to sustain that life should be made. Obama does not share that view.
    Sigh. This kinda makes me sad. I also wonder…if the child IS kept alive, what kind of life would it have? And in that sense…is life better at all costs?
    So complicated.

  204. Since this comment has come up several times already, I’m fessing up – while I’m a regular Baristanet reader, I am a “new” poster, and yes, I am posting about politics. Jimmytown seems to have a problem with that since I don’t agree with him. And my WiFi is right in my home, as I’m not ready to join the geriatric set yet – I guess Jimmytown resents older folks as well as Republicans. Maybe I will disappear in 60 days, but I don’t think Pitbull and Cather, among others, will. So I guess your liberal world will continue to be rocked by people that actually disagree with you.

  205. Zoeg: I share you quandary. I also think abortion is wrong but I am pro-choice because whether it is legal or not, women are not going to stop having abortions. That being said, I would rather see them have legal, medically-safe ones. In a perfect world, no one who could not properly raise a child, or who did not really want a child, would get pregnant. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. I DO have a problem with abortions being federally-funded, however. Unless your life is in danger, if you want one, you should pay for it (of course, it should be covered by insurance).

  206. So Palin’s 17 year old daughter is pregnant?
    Chalk one up for conservative family values. At least she wasn’t using contraception (or perhaps used it incorrectly – teaching kids how to use condoms is a bad thing, right? They should just abstain.) But the good news is she will marry the young gent. Because, after all, if you get into a little heated wrestling in the back of the minivan you are ready to select your lifemate. That is just plain good parenting!!! And it’s the sort of knee-jerk decision making that we need in the White House.

  207. Its funny how the GOP compared Obama with Brittany Spears, when its Palins family that is on the Spear’s track. 17 year old pregnant girls are for Hollywood. Im glad that Sarah is proud of her little shot gun wedding, she deserves a #1 Grandma mug

  208. Seems that Mom had her own “shot-gun” wedding 20 years ago as well.
    But I’m not passing judgment. Really, I’m not. For some people maturity and judgment comes later in life.
    If at all (hello John Edwards).

  209. zoeg, please keep posting. And I write that as someone who has met three very nice “older” Zoes” in his life, the writer Zoe Oldenbourg and the actresses Zoe Caldwell and Zoe Wanamaker.

  210. Why, thank you, Cathar! I’m sure I’m in good company.
    As all you parents out there know, those values you work so hard to teach your kids take root during their teen years, so if your kid succumbs to hormones or peer pressure it’s clearly YOUR moral failing.
    Interesting that in the tolerant (hah) liberal world, there’s only one sensible outcome for an unintended pregnancy. It’s called “abortion.” That someone in a less than ideal circumstance should choose to have her baby must mean she’s an ignorant, religious freak.
    No failure of imagination there.

  211. This campaign just keeps getting more exciting. It just hit the wires that the first VP debate is going to be hosted by Jerry Springer!

  212. “Interesting that in the tolerant (hah) liberal world, there’s only one sensible outcome for an unintended pregnancy. It’s called “abortion.” That someone in a less than ideal circumstance should choose to have her baby must mean she’s an ignorant, religious freak.”
    osted by: zoeg | September 1, 2008 6:37 PM
    You, zoeg, are the one being intolerant here.
    Who says that all “liberals” are pro-choice?
    Who says that all liberals would make that choice (that is, to choose abortion) in such a situation – even if they believe others should have that choice?
    Who says that all conservatives are anti-choice (or whatever term you prefer)?
    And who is saying that anyone is “an ignorant, religious freak” because they don’t choose abortion?
    You are drawing a distorted picture of other people – lumping groups together – pretending they are as you describe – and then you are lambasting them for being the way you have fabricated.
    Chill out.

  213. NJ Guy – If you scroll up, you’ll see who I was addressing; I should have made that clear instead of generalizing. I do think I hit the nail on the head as far as those posters are concerned.
    I apologize for not allowing for the fact that most people are far too complicated to put into a category.
    Now, as for chillin’ out…if you think THAT was me needing chilling, you ain’t heard nothin’ yet!

  214. I posted this on the NYT blog because, well, my post says it all. I realize that a bunch of you won’t agree with my comments, but I figured
    it might make for more good discussion.
    44.September 1st, 2008 5:36 pm
    Perhaps Gov. Sarah Palin never had the time to educate her daughter about using a condom because she was too busy killing moose/foxes/caribou (and lets not forget looking into drilling in Alaska!).
    At the very least you’d think that Gov. Palin would inform her daughter about AIDS (thus the condom). I feel sorry for young Bristol Palin — pregnant and soon-to-be married at 17. Mommy and Daddy should have been paying a little more attention to the kiddies.
    ? Deborah Broide, Montclair, NJ
    RecommendedRecommended by 45 Readers

  215. And this adds to the discussion how? By assuming Governor Palin never spoke about sex or AIDS to her daughter?
    Actually, DeborahPub, I anticipated your post and have already responded to it a few posts back.
    NJ Guy, I really think you were right in what you wrote regarding my last, but after reading DPub – can you see how HARD it is to be GOOD????

  216. Zoeg,
    Sorry I’m not going into this with you. From your posts I can see where you stand (180 degrees from where I do).
    However, to say that AIDS doesn’t come into the discussion is just silly. And let’s remember that Gov. Palin (whom I would bet never discussed AIDS with her kids) “is excited” (or whatever foolish thing she said) for her daughter. You are entitled to your opinions, of course. That said, I’m not into attacking other posters, but feel free to
    give it (me) your best shot. I shall ignore them (as your politics and mine will never see eye to eye).

  217. Move over Gustav, here comes Hurricane Sarah!
    So already Palin’s lied to the media and American public. Each and every one of you. Boy, she doesn’t have much political experience but she’s sure caught on quick!
    And how exactly does Palin fit into the ideology of Christian conservatives now that her daughter has had pre-marital sex and Palin supports it? Ahhh, must be that whole ‘Turn a Blind Eye’ thing. Anything goes when it’s one of your own right?
    Like Michael Franti said 20 years ago, hypocrisy is the greatest luxury, and it’s the well-heeled conservatives’ most dangerous vice.
    “Do as I say, not as I do” seems to be the biggest plank in the Republican platform. I can’t even imagine the field day Republicans would have had with this if it were Obama’s black daughter and she were 17 years old, unmarried and pregnant. I mean, look at the number they did on Edwards and they were two consenting adults!
    I hope, at the very least, Palin is now willing to rethink her abstinence-only approach to sex education. Then again, rethinking something requires you to think about it in the first place.
    There is a lot about this woman that needs to be probed. In a country where the reichwing makes “family values” their stock in trade the state of their family needs to be exposed.
    What kind of woman boards a plane while she’s in labor?
    What kind of mother leaves a newborn Down Syndrome baby to campaign all over the country?
    What kind of a mother decides to run for VP of the US if she’s just given birth to a baby who needs her and if she’s just found out her unwed teenage daughter is going to have a baby?
    Let’s see, so far we have:
    CleanWater-gate (ballot measure 4)
    This woman’s judgment, or lack of it, along with her Christian Soldier mentality that she is eager to apply to everyone in this country except her own family seriously scares me.

  218. So is the decision that Brooke marry her baby-daddy:
    A) Brooke’s decision
    B) Brooke’s parents’ decision
    C) the decision of some Karl-Rove-acolyte-campaign-manager who is trying to make the best of a bad situation

  219. Argh, it’s so sad for this teenage girl that her life is now thrust into the spotlight.
    I wish her and her baby all the best in the world.
    However, this does underscore the shortcomings of Palin’s platform, which includes abstinence-only education in public schools (i.e., no education regarding birth control or prevention of STDs, including HIV) and an extremely restrictive abortion policy.
    Palin’s daughter’s choice is her own. And she’s extremely fortunate in that she has the support of her parents, who happen to be quite wealthy. However, most 17-year-old children do not have these resources and would not be well served by raising children themselves (and neither would their children). And it’s absolutely pigheaded and goes against everything in our biology to think that abstinence-only ‘education’ is going to prevent teenagers from having sex.
    It. Will. Never. Happen.
    I love kids. I hate the idea of abortion. I’m certainly not married to it as an American ideal. However, I find it the height of hypocrisy to say that we should deny our children education regarding how to prevent pregnancy and the transmission of disease, and then doom them to a life of caring for children they are likely ill equipped to care for.
    Can’t have it both ways, people. I’m all for education to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and infections. That is a win-win. Education regarding values and morals should be given by parents at home, or in church/temple/mosque if that’s what parents choose.

  220. Bristol is starting her Senior Year. If she gets married to her Babys Father before she has the baby (shot gun wedding), they will be husband and wife starting the winter of their senior year. Maybe they can go on their honeymoon during christmas break, leaving the baby at home. After all, Jet setting after you have a child is tradition in that family, no?

  221. Here are some thoughts: (not my words) from people who do not have a Baristanet User Name:
    “how ironic is it that they cite privacy as the reason they are not giving out the following information: the man’s age, his last name, and the way he and the daughter know each other. Does this woman not understand how Roe V. Wade and the right to privacy work? Her daughter will have no right to privacy in her next election, if she works to overturn it.
    Tisk tisk tisk. I think she misplaced her copy of the constitution and how judgments of the supreme court affect them. Perhaps a staffer can get her a copy?”
    This issue isn’t that Bristol is pregnant. The issue I have, as a woman, is that Palin has a four month old baby with down syndrome at home who’s mother is about to become Vice President. She has a 17 year old daughter who is about to have a baby…a time when a young, teenage mother will need her own mother the most. And despite these personal choices and responsibilities, she is choosing to take on the second most important job in the US, regardless of the effect is has on her family.
    And unfortunately, she has made her poor teenage girl, the poster child for teen pregnancy. The scruitiny and difficulty in being a teen mother is hard enough, much less having to live up to the standards of the right wing.
    Do you really think she had an authentic choice in deciding to keep this baby (whether terminating the pregnancy or choosing adoption)?
    I’m all about putting your country first, but putting your political career before the best interests of your family, and the needs of your children is something completely different.

  222. I’m having a hard time seeing this from anything other than the point of view that if the baby is alive, every effort to sustain that life should be made. Obama does not share that view.
    Come on, zoeg. Obama’s point in the discussion of that bill, I think obviously, is that physicians operate under the Hippocratic Oath, which is ‘to first do no harm.’ I would like to know what, exactly, suggests that there are instances of physicians performing abortions, finding an aborted baby is in fact alive, and then not doing anything to provide it with appropriate medical care.
    That sounds absolutely absurd and disgusting.
    Surely, there are a tiny minority of physicians who are disgusting and unethical human beings–just as there are in every other walk of life. However, the number of physicians (even, as you call them, abortionists) who would be so heartless as to perform such an act must be infinitessimal.
    If there were any suggestion that such a problem were occurring with any frequency whatsoever, then a bill requiring a ‘second opinion’ in every case on the fetus’s viability would be appropriate. Otherwise, as Obama and the Medical Society suggested, such an intervention would only serve to intimidate (or burden, as he put it) the mother and the primary physician.
    If there are typos here, give me a break. I have work to do and drank too much prosecco this afternoon.

  223. Some posting here with anti-Palin views are criticizing her choice to campaign while she has an infant and a pregnant teenager.
    I would ask you whether you’d make the same criticisms if the candidate were Todd Palin, and not Sarah Palin? I think you should be cautious in assuming you know what support system Palin has in place for her children and unborn grandchild.
    If we call ourselves open-minded and criticize others for being close-minded, we have to consider that we may not know everything about an individual family’s situation. If Palin’s husband is taking over full-time care of their kids while she campaigns, I fail to see how that’s any worse than a male candidate’s wife taking care of their young children.

  224. First off, all you poor little Montclair libs are so upset that there is a real conservative base in “good old Montclair”. News flash to all you dumbos hanging on a Friday afternoon on Church and Bloomfield… get a JOB!!!! or do something useful like work the soup kitchen.
    Miss Marta-pick a side. Your standing on the fence is pissing me off!
    How many of you dear souls know a 17 yr old who is/was preggers or have a daughter of your own who is/became pregnant?? How many of you were actually pregnant before you were married? Uh, very few , right? It’s not a party issue. It’s not who was told of the birds and the bees at age 10. It’s not those of you who had a conservative parent or a liberal parent. It happens!! The Palins are a normal family, get over it!! For me, it makes Sarah a much more in touch with parents of a teenager. So you’re pissed that she didn’t march her daughter down to the nearest abortion clinic to have an abortion? ” My bid for VP is so much more important than your PERSONAL situation that MANY young women have gone through? So you need to have an abortion so I can appear/seem squeaky clean?” So your obsessed with the fact that her parents are actually supporting their daughter in a situations that many of you may have been in? YOU liberal women make me sick, sick as all hell!!
    You are not about women’s rights, you are about party rights. Kill the baby and you can be part of the libs! Choose to have your baby and your a conservative!
    We are talking about a 17 year old girl here. Not a woman of 30, married and knocked up! Can’t you think compassion? Can’t you think : there for the grace of God go I?? OR MY TEENAGE DAUGHTER? Jeeze, like it never happened before? Like Sarah Palin’s daughter is the only person alive to have SEX before marriage? All that Sarah Palin is going through is exactly what each and every one of us could/did go through!
    She is 17!!!!! It does happen. What you teach your children and the dreams you have for them don’t always work out the way you planned, do they? So, kill the baby? Forget that it happened?
    Feminism…you can have it all. Right? But don’t get pregnant at 17 because you will be judged by the very people who fight for your rights to make a CHOICE!!! Sarah’s daughter is making her own choice and you don’t like it.

  225. Katie-
    Stay at home Dads are great. Its unfortunate that someone who preaches that life is a miracle, and so precious, is the same person that would (basically) abandon said miracle to Jet set around the country to compete for the 2nd highest position (and pretty time consuming) in the land. Its just that I would think someone who is so focused on living their own life and not raising a 4 month (oh, and Todd, you dont mind raising a child with special needs, along with another child with special needs and her child…. Super Dad) Now, take that responsibility, and apply it to two working parents in the same situation.

  226. It looks like Palin wasn’t vetted at all. She is getting beaten like a pinata. What the heck was McCain thinking and is this the kind of decision making we could expect in the future. His choice for the VP was extraordinarily reckless. The guy has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peal. He chooses someone he hasn’t even vetted to become the president in the case of his death. I guess he’s planning to live. McCain is a scary candidate and getting more scary by the moment. Can you imagine the perky chippy with her finger on the button. We are facing the greatest foreign policy crisis since the WWII and this is the best McCain can do. Forget it. The Republicans shouldn’t run anyone. Just sit this one out.

  227. Hey, Katebird –
    The reason the bill came up in the first place was because, Hippocratic Oath or not, babies that survived these abortions attempts were being left to die. Jill Stanek, a nurse at a Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, IL, testified in front of the Illinois Senate about this. Here is one quote:
    “In the event that an aborted baby is born alive, she or he receives “comfort care,” defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until s/he dies. Parents may hold the baby if they wish. If the parents do not want to hold their dying aborted baby, a staff member cares for the baby until s/he dies. If staff did does not have the time or desire to hold the baby, s/he is taken to Christ Hospital?s new Comfort Room, which is complete with a First Foto machine if parents want professional pictures of their aborted baby, baptismal supplies, gowns, and certificates, foot printing equipment and baby bracelets for mementos, and a rocking chair. Before the Comfort Room was established, babies were taken to the Soiled Utility Room to die.”
    If you want to read her whole testimony, it’s here:
    This was not an obscure case at the time. She had, in fact, found a baby left to die in a Utility Room. Apparently, whatever laws were already on the books were not addressing this. I think the tricky part was if these babies were given any kind of “right” to treatment, who was to say they didn’t have that same “right” when they were in the womb, which would lead to complications concerning Roe V. Wade. The bill was rewritten to include language to insure that its passage would not undermine abortion rights in any way. In fact, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, and NARAL all voiced approval for a similar bill that was in the senate. Yet Obama, even with the language change, voted against it.
    I think I’ve explained why the bill came up in the first place. Am I missing something?
    BTW – I won’t comment on your typos (of which I found none) if you don’t comment on mine!

  228. jimmy–
    I’m not sure I disagree with you. I just think this is very tricky ground on which to tread.
    Many of us were offended when people stuck their noses into John Edwards’s candidacy and said he shouldn’t be campaigning while his wife was ill. (I’m not talking about anything that’s happened recently; that’s another story.)
    We can’t have it both ways. Every family has its own story. While the Republican party has certainly tried to fashion itself as the ‘family values’ party (I think to poor effect) and thereby has opened itself to criticism on shortcomings in the family arena, I still wonder whether people would be making these comments at all if Palin’s husband were the one running for office.

  229. Montclairgirl –
    I have to say…I know this town is largely liberal, but I had NO idea the amount of vitriol it contained!! On the other hand, this is only representative of a small portion of our community. My neighbors and I don’t see eye-to-eye on politics, but never would we speak to each other the way posters do. I guess it’s the anonymity. Thing is, I always associated “liberal” with “tolerant,” and I’m not seeing a whole heck of a lot of that around here. I enjoy a debate as much as the next, but the constant name calling and the hurling of charges…YIKES!
    I agree with you that in the quest to destroy all things Republican, people are not stopping to consider that they’re talking about a 17-year-old. I can only hope that if any of the vitriol-spewers find their own children have fallen short of the ideals and values they’ve tried to teach them, they show more compassion.

  230. Katie-
    You are right. There are still roles that we see, and just as the courts see a woman as the best suitor to raise a child, many of us agree. Can there be a Mr. Mom at home holding down fort while Sarah is our campaigning? Absolutely. In fact, im sure he is at least making the tough calls to delegate this job to a staff of Nannies and care givers. But if you are steam rolling an idea of abstinence and christian beliefs (no sex before marriage. No babies out of wed lock, etc) You have to spotlight the irony. Its no different than Cheney’s daughter being gay

  231. zoeg–excuse me, but I think the most vitriolic postings here have been by montclairgirl herself. They add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
    There is a weird phenomenon that happens on Baristanet–‘conservative’ posters write comments, many hurl personal insults at the supposed ‘liberals’ here, and then they complain about how they are persecuted by bad old ‘liberal’ Montclair.
    I hate to break it to you, but I don’t break the entirety of human beings into 2 camps. That’s just silly, and I wouldn’t appreciate it if people oversimplified me in such a fashion.
    That’s part of the reason why I find it so patently ridiculous to watch several of the posters here patting each other on the back and talking about how wonderful it is to find other ‘right-thinking’ people. Are we truly living in an Orwellian society now?
    People are interesting in their complexities. When you reduce them to a simple 2-party equation, you remove all possibility for discussion and nuance.

  232. And, zoeg–my God, the testimony by those nurses at Christ Hospital is absolutely horrific and made me cry.
    There is absolutely no excuse for medical professionals (and I would specifically implicate the nursing staff in the examples cited) to behave as they were alleged to in those cases. It is vile.
    I will certainly do more reading on this subject, as I will be honest with you–I have always assumed it is an issue drummed up by anti-choice activists to stir up support for their cause. I still hope it is, but will educate myself further.
    If, in fact, this is a problem that occurs beyond a minute fraction of cases, then it would certainly be justified to have a second opinion by a physician regarding abortions that occur later in pregnancy.
    I would certainly hope that physicians and nurses would take their obligations as healthcare professionals and as human beings seriously enough to make that superfluous, though.

  233. Yes, it is pretty horrific, and I’ve been reading about it for a while. Again, I think the problem comes with mandating treatment for a “fetus” vs. a “baby.” Clearly this can call Roe V. Wade into question, but again – the Illinois bill, as well as the federal bill, made it clear the legislation would not compromise Roe V Wade.

  234. “Miss Marta-pick a side. Your standing on the fence is pissing me off!”
    Sorry I am pissing you off and ruining your perfect little yuppie fantasy. Boo-hoo. I have already picked a side–pro-choice–but I don’t like sanctimonious hyprocrites like Sarah Palin who preach “family values” and then their kid gets knocked up because she didn’t have the effin’ sense to use a condom! Then she has the nerve to gloss over it, like it’s no big deal and won’t matter to voters. So, let me ask, which side are YOU on?

  235. What on earth am I ‘latching on’ to, montclairgirl?
    I read, I debate, I listen, I learn. You might try doing the same.
    If you can’t handle the complexities of human life, you should stay out of debates that head into territories other than “Hey, you think what I think! You rock!” or “Your standing on the fence is pissing me off! Pick a side!”
    We’re not at a grade school pep rally, dear. Fences are the places where life gets interesting. I am not ‘latching on’ to anything. It’s a little something I call ‘considering information I haven’t seen before.’

  236. Oh Miss Marta, pul-eesse we already know you are anti-child. Let me leave it there. Have you abandoned your uterus and now call yourself a liberal? Teenagers get pregnant, yes? We have a choice, no? Palin’s daughter is choosing to have her child, does that make you uncomfortable? All little liberal girls under the age of let’s say 21? use condoms? How nice? cozy, almost. You, as a woman, know this stuff happens. When it happened to you, was your mom running as the VP? No? did she explain EVERYTHING to you? No? Wow, I am quite surprised since you seem so judgmental! Glass houses and all, ya know?

  237. Dearest K-
    you seem annoyed by what I post. So sorry… and then GET OVER IT! You read and debate? Okay. Seems like a different view is pissing you off. Again, get over it!
    Your new here, huh? Just like the libs are questioning some of the new posters on this list. I question your whereabouts in the past. Where have you been all my conservative life?

  238. “It looks like Palin wasn’t vetted at all.”
    I’m going to stick my neck out and make a wild bet that McCain is running Palin as a “trial balloon.” He gets to eclipse media on the DNC, tricks the Dems back into debating experience, promote good old American divisiveness, placate the right-wing religious fanatics and phony feminists. At the end of the RNC when they are forced to dump Palin, he tells them, “I tried. Guess we’ll have to go with one of my other picks.” Then, he gets to distract everyone again with a new pick.
    Republicans don’t win on issues, they win by distracting Americans who are addicted to media hype, soaps and celebrities, and self-defeating prejudices.

  239. montclairgirl, not that it matters–but I’m not new here. I have posted for quite some time under the name “Kate” (which is my real name), which I recently changed because so many people were mixing me up with ‘katie.’
    I’m not pissed off by your view; I’m bored by your lack of one.
    Nana, your theory is interesting. One way or another, I agree that Palin’s candidacy will not last. If there is an actual method to the madness behind these machinations, I’d be somewhat impressed (although still disgusted).

  240. Do any of you who assume Governor Palin didn’t tell her children about sex or condoms or AIDS or contraceptives have children? Anyone – ANYONE – who has a child, particularly a teenager, knows how hard it is to have them see things the way YOU want them to see them. Have any of you done exactly what your parents thought you shouldn’t do? Have any of you grown up, looked back, and hoped your own children wouldn’t make the mistakes YOU made?
    My God. You’re acting like because Governor Palin is pro-life, this is some kind of comeuppance for her. May none of YOU ever have YOUR child break your heart.
    I hope that what is the source of righteous glee for some of you becomes the thing that draws the Palin family closer together. Because in the end, there will be a child born. And while there aren’t many things to be sure of in life, I am quite sure that once that child arrives, no one who that baby matters to is going to be anything other than grateful that she’s there.

  241. Pokey, I think I read somewhere that that seminal scene was Ang Lee’s inspiration for “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.”
    God, you people have to stop enabling me to be distracted here, or I will never, ever finish this *&^% project. Argh.

  242. montclairgirl –
    You reserve the right to hate people who feel or believe differently than you. Fine.
    And that apparently also gives you the right to criticize them viciously, on a personal level. OK.
    Then you call them judgmental.
    That goes even beyond vitriol.

  243. The fact that Bristol Palin is with child only helps McCain’s selection of Sarah for veep. It makes her relatable to “everywoman” .. Sarah is a mother, a wife, a professional and has real issues JUST LIKE ALL OF US. Very cool that the family is loving and supportive of this unexpected pregnancy. It will help McCain the same way Gustav has helped McCain. Obama even helped McCain and Palin when he reminded people that his own mother gave birth to Baby Barack at the age of 18, and, had it not been for the loving support of extended family, he might never have been. What if Backack has been an aborted baby? We wouldn’t have him running for President in this historic race! All is as it should be. When you really think about it, all the candidates are well- intentioned, good people. It boils down to which way America wants to swing the pendulum at this point in history. The pendulum is long overdue to swing!!! It’s time.

  244. Zoeg — yes, we have two kids.
    A 17 year old (about to be a senior at MHS) and 25 year old (med. student in NYC).
    I have a lot of compassion for Gov.
    Palin’s daughter. And although I’m pro-choice (and have been since I was a teenager in the 70’s), the key word is “choice.” That said, I do wish the Palin family well (this isn’t a joke either).
    Montclairgirl — I know that Mrs. Martta doesn’t need me to defend her (there’s an irony here since I’m way on the left, and Mrs. M is so not.) but your post about her “uterus” was disgusting. It was so mean spirited that it defies description. Shame on you.

  245. BirdcrapRex,
    “I’m not pissed off by your view; I’m bored by your lack of one.”
    Seems to me TOOTS you need a tape recorder and a frickin mirror. Sounds like you!
    I contest you might read things, you try to debate, you’ve rarely listened, and you have NEVER learned.
    Seems I also remember seeing you on a cartoon with a pink frosted donut. Doh!
    Good night, sleep tight…maybe the brain fairy will come and remove what’s left of that huge unused blob sitting on your shoulders.
    Kiss, Kiss

  246. Hey Puss&Boots what got your balls in knot? Here I sit minding my own business and you attack me. Can’t get a fair fight from a man, eh? Okay then, bend over, here I cum!!

  247. What the f*** is going on here? This is a silly little local blog, filled with inane personal battles. cathar and lasermike, williams and croiagusanam, etc.
    Now we have a bunch of god damn tourists making this into a Michelle Malkin vs. Daily KOS deathmatch.
    Go back to your own freakin sites! We want our own local loonies back!

  248. DPub – Earlier you said I wrote that AIDS shouldn’t be discussed – no, I didn’t. I said NOTHING like that. Maybe you misread something I wrote.
    What’s offensive is the assumption that Governor Palin never discussed these things with her daughter, hence the pregnancy. None of us knows what goes in anyone’s home. Being a public figure, and an important one, subjects the governor to criticism. But much of the dialogue here has gone beyond that. And while criticizing her positions is one thing, criticizing her skills as a mom should be off the table.
    It was the feminists who wrote the script for equality, and many of them let women know what they thought of those who stayed home with their kids instead of working. And now that there’s a woman running for the second highest position in the land, she’s being chastised for…not staying home with her kids! Talk about Orwellian.
    I bet all who are finding fault with Palin’s decision to run in spite of her children are also the ones who were cheering for Hillary when she asked, “What was I supposed to do? Stay home and bake cookies?”

  249. Welcome to our beautiful police state, where presidential hopeful Barack Obama is launching a criminal investigation to try to stop a negative ad from airing:
    Continuing his efforts to muzzle free speech, he has protestors call a local radio station to intimidate the host from airing a program investing his activities while on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge:
    No, this isn’t a joke.

  250. zoeg – it’s about campaign financing & political ad spending.
    It’s also about ads being run that benefit a candidate but that aren’t endorsed by that candidate. Hence the candidate can say they have no control over the content or the tone of the ads.
    You may recall there was a similar situation during the last election…
    Obama needs to be tough and fight back against these campaigns of innuendo and vague character attacks (I have it from profwilliams that that’s the thing to do – it shows strength of character).
    No joke.

  251. NJ Guy – If you watched the ad, I don’t think there’s anything in it that’s untrue. As far as attack ads go, it’s not even over the top. The DOJ threw out the first challenge that Obama came up with, so now there’s a second. These are criminal charges – does he want the parties jailed because he doesn’t like what they said? The AIP, of course, has taken care that everything they’ve done is above board, and have sent a list of Obama donors who have sponsored negative ads against John Mcain, noting that if this investigation proceeds, they’ll be filing their own charges.
    You don’t see a free speech issue here? Again, I don’t think the ad was false, but it speaks of Bill Ayers, and that’s a difficult subject for Obama. His defense of his relationship doesn’t amount to much more than “I was 8 when the Pentagon was bombed.”
    As far as the interview with Kurtz – again, it involved Obama’s association with Ayers.
    Obama freely admits to hanging around with Marxists and Communists during his college years. Now, the question is NOT, oh-my-god, is he a COMMIE?? I don’t believe he’s any of those things. The question is how do the views of the radical people he spent so much time with affect the way he thinks now in terms of the direction he would like to take this country in. I’ve read some of the details of his service programs. This is a social agenda unlike anything this country as seen, and I find it scary.
    I don’t think stifiling ads that say what you don’t want said is a show of strength – it’s an approach that speaks quite the opposite.

  252. Zoe, get off this site. You are obviously not from around here. You support war criminals and people that violate the law and the constitution everyday. You and your party is destroying this republic and you need to be resisted. Get off this site.
    It is your effort take away our freedom whether you know it or not. You are a scary, scary person.

  253. laser,
    Your rant of GET OFF THIS SITE, reminds me of Bob Grant’s old line GET OFF MY PHONES….
    Ah, the good old WABC days, Grant and my dear Lynn Samuels…. I miss her… The old her….

  254. Mikey (the very laserboy who whinged so yesterday about how “tired” he was in an outstandingly ridiculous attempt to summon up pity for his idiocy), you have an amazing amount of nerve telling anyone to “get off this site.”
    Who appointed you the arbiter, laserlad? Who even takes you semi-seriously, for that matter? That you post in hopes of being “heard” just indicates how mad you really are.
    And that you called me a “traitor” above in another post is quite amusing, you stupendous fool. Oh mikey, you clearly have aspirations beyond serving as the village idiot. Perhaps you wish to be the state version? If so, you’ve got my vote!

  255. Mikey says, “hey, you, get off of my cloud,” prof. But he really means the boulder which serves as his bed, upon which humans and dogs alike void themselves regularly. (Even if it only exists in dreamlike form.)
    Unlike your august self, however, good prof, I don’t miss Bob Grant. I was always more of a Barry Gray person.

  256. Me? SCARY?? How funny! I kinda like that.
    Well, in that case, I think I’ll keep posting, so be afraid…be VERY afraid.

  257. “Oh Miss Marta, pul-eesse we already know you are anti-child. Let me leave it there. Have you abandoned your uterus and now call yourself a liberal? Teenagers get pregnant, yes? We have a choice, no? Palin’s daughter is choosing to have her child, does that make you uncomfortable? All little liberal girls under the age of let’s say 21? use condoms? How nice? cozy, almost. You, as a woman, know this stuff happens. When it happened to you, was your mom running as the VP? No? did she explain EVERYTHING to you? No? Wow, I am quite surprised since you seem so judgmental! Glass houses and all, ya know?”
    Did someone spill a whole bunch of stoopid on you?
    For one thing, I am not a liberal, as anyone who posts here regulary knows. I happen to be a conservative who is pro-choice. We do exist, you know.
    And no, I did not “abandon my uterus” (whatever that means) not did I get pregnant out of wedlock.
    And finally, I am not “anti-child.” I just chose to not have my own. Where do you get your cacamamie ideas anyway?

  258. It’s funny, Grant is now on WOR. And I can’t listen to him. Although I still love his opening…
    I enjoyed Barry Gray, but I only caught him at the end of his run.
    I’m lost in the afternoon though. No one has me. Between 2:30 (when wnyc’s Soundcheck loses me) and 4 (when All Things Considered starts) I’m a sad prof.
    Wait!!! Sorry. I mean– I’m busy getting my marching orders from Hannity and Rush!!!!

  259. Jeezus, what’s going on here? Three hundred some posts, all while I’ve been away visiting the in-laws, missing all the fun. Geesh.

  260. Zoeg: Please, don’t stop posting! We need more support for our tribe.
    Re: radio. Does anyone remember Alex Bennett from “Fabulous 57 with the Good Guys?”

  261. Is that right Cathar, champion of torture and the police state. You have worked hard to destroy the constitution, that isyou and the people you work with. It looks like you plans are close to complete.

  262. I remember Alex Bennett, Mrs. Martta, but not at all fondly. (I believe he survives on either Boston or LA radio.) He had the overnight gig at some station, and he was a very predictable purveyor of drug exhortations and left-wing nonsense. Much smarter than the crazoes who called in nightly seeking absolution for their own muddleheadedness, but that’s not saying much. Such charlatans were much to be expected during the late 60’s-early 70’s, and they were willing to say just about anything by way of advancing their own careers. I much prefer (even today) both Jim Kerr (a very nice guy) and Pat St. John, who perhaps to his own surprise now spins as “oldies” the music he once surprised the listening universe with as of the greatest currency.
    Comrade laserlumpenprole, you snarl to so little effect of late. Is this just a temporary blip caused by the Republican convention? Gosh, I hope so. Get those fans sharpened! And the last time I checked, the Constitution was in fine shape.

  263. “fans” = “fangs.
    I mean, hey mikey, the idea that you have any real fans out there besides me is utterly impossible.

  264. zoeg – it’s about campaign financing & political ad spending. These areas are governed by laws. If you believe the laws are being violated you bring charges. Yes, it is the right thing to do.
    As to the content of the ads – partisan innuendo and fear tactics that attack a Democrat are important and necessary, from your point of view.
    On other hand, partisan innuendo and fear tactics that aimed at your own candidates are deplorable, from your point of view.
    Wouldn’t that be a double standard?

  265. NJ Guy – Now, why are you saying that I think “fear tactics and innuendo” aimed at my candidates are deplorable? If it’s because of my responses to other posters, well, I’m RESPONDING. I certainly don’t want anyone arrested!!
    What I’m concerned about is a bigger issue, because it sets a precedent. I’m sure you agree that free speech issues can go down a slippery slope. My concern with the Obama ad is the litigation of free speech. There are as many negative McCain ads as there are Obama ads. I am NOT in favor of EITHER side silencing the other with lawsuits. And as I said earlier, the DOJ threw the original complaint out because it was not valid – AIP followed the rules. Hence, Obama came up with a new complaint, which I believe has not been decided on.
    And trying to intimidate a radio show into not airing an interview? That’s just wrong.

  266. Interesting that one can argue the same issue from two sides (both negative to Dems).
    Dems don’t stand up to false ad campaigns because they lack courage and character.
    Then when Dems stand up to false ad campaigns it shows they want to stifle free speech.
    Hey, I have to run. Thanks for your thoughts zoeg.

  267. Hmmmm. I guess you hear what you want to hear.
    So, one last time: I don’t want REPUBLICANS or DEMOCRATS to stifle free speech through the courts.

  268. EmpDee Headed One,
    I wasn’t attacking you! I was challenging BirdShitRex (toots 2). I simply forgot the two (2).
    But, damn, you’re nasty!!!
    If I was trying to pick a fight you’d know it. Also, I don’t hit women, even big ugly looking linebacker types. I was raised never to hit a woman–even one who acts like she has male genitalia.
    So, if you want me to bend over, Barbarella, you’re going to have to do a face-to-face. Happy to meet you any place, any time to have you give it a shot.
    Btw, when were you released from the NY Giants?

  269. Zoe
    Glad to see laserDORK hasn’t run you off. In his calling for you to leave I construe his actions as being akin to that of a Police State?
    Would you not agree?

  270. Hey Pitbull,
    Well, yes; I guess “police state” is okay as long as he’s policin’!
    Can you imagine what THAT would be like?
    Anyway, he can’t run me off. He said I’m scary. I’ve been smiling all day. I’ve never been called scary before. It’s kinda cool!

  271. wow… everytime lasermike doensn’t like a poster’s point of view, he tell them to take a hike and that they’re probably not from around here… it’ laughable! listen to me, lasermike, my honeybunches of oats, people from around here agree with zoeg and you need to take your liberal, all-encompassing, tolerant, broadminded views and apply to those of us who simply don’t agree with your political stance. can you do that? you and your people profess to be able to. so just do it, dude!

  272. “If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.” – George W. Bush.

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