Last night a tipster sends in a disturbing report of being verbally harrassed with gay slurs.
Just wanted to let you know that just now as we walked by the intersection
of Union & Orange (right at Rocky the horse’s paddock) my partner and I were
verbally abused by a pair of black men in a sedan.
As they approached, the passenger began yelling loudly “Hey, you wanna have
sex? You want me to f***you? Want me to F*** YOU?”
The tipster and his parter ignored and turned onto Union. The men in the car stopped at the light and the guy was leaning out the window, continuing to yell out offensive remarks; the yelling continued until the lights changed and they continued south on Orange.
The tipster asked that we post his account along with the recommendation to take care while walking around town at night.
How about noting the license plate number and make and model of the car and calling the police? Instead of just “taking care” that this might happen, take a stand against it.
Don’t let the idiots win.
this kind of thing has happened to me for years, and i’m not even gay!
wcs2, I’d agree, but given the incident occured at night, it may have been difficult to make out the plates (although they were able identify the offenders as black.)
My question is: was there any pudding thrown?
I am not gay, but that is pretty discusting.
I am gay, and I am so sick and tired of hearing this kind of thing happening in Montclair. My partner and I frequent many restaurants in town, and have fortunately never encountered this kind of thing. Sadly some black heterosexual males will soon have the town to themselves if they continue to harass and beat gays in the manner of the past 2 months. Please stop giving them excuses, the people involved make life miserable for all gay and straight black and white folk. I am trying so hard to keep a civil tongue here and not stoop to the level of these idiots. It is not easy.
Pump the brakes, kevron76.
No need to label a group– even your weak qualifier of “some” can’t hide the same kind of prejudice in your post you hope to rid.
(And your idea that this is what will leave “the town to themselves” is equally dumb.)
No need to react to hate with more hate.
But why didn’t the tipster have the make and model of the car and call the cops? And it’s hard to believe, even at night that some license plate info couldn’t be seen.
Not sure why the first reaction was to “tip” baristanet.
One of the most important things a community can do is notify the police when something happens because (hopefully) they are the ones keeping track and can work to rectify a problem.
Tipping baristanet does not.
my partner and i have lived in montclair for over 3 years. we frequently hold hands in town just as our heterosexual couple friends do and were harassed once a few months ago by what appeared to be a white father and son duo. that said, that prior incident and the current 2 more recent instances involving young black men targeting gay guys in town is very worrisome. its not an issue of race per se, but if it so happens that its black teens/young adults targeting gay people in town then clearly that is something to consider.
gay people face prejudice, discrimination, harassment, and the threat of physical danger every day. i’m not sure what world you people are living in you think times have changed that much in the past few decades. gay marriage aside, there are some super intolerant bigoted people out there and open and out gays need to be super careful. its a shame in a town as liberal and progressive as montclair that the community as a whole allows such things to happen. and regarding professor williams’ comments – until you have faced similar threats of physical violence and daily harassment and discrimination, you have no footing to stand on in this forum. period.
i have been reading baristanet since i moved to town and i have never left a comment until today. prof. williams’ cavalier attitude towards gay people and our struggles and this most recent issue of gays being harassed in town was my tipping point.
i will also close with this, when we were harassed a few months ago *in the middle of the day* it was so shocking and scary that i could only tell you the color of the car and that the people inside were white. next time someone commits a hate crime against you – we’ll see how many details you can remember to inform the police – which by the way would do nothing to prevent such a thing from happening.
now, what would prevent such a hate crime from happening, well, thats a whole nother story.
peace.
This is a shame, in this period of time. This conservative ignorant backlash taking place in 2009 and who would have thought CA. would revert to the stone age too? Plus ca change….Sad But True
epsphd, I am very familiar with prejudice, discrimination, harassment, and the threat of physical danger. When my parents bought a nice home in a very respected Essex county town, that street had just 8 houses on it. Of the 8, the people in 6 would not speak to us, because we are Jewish. They turned their backs on my Mom & Dad. I was just 8 years old, and like you, did not understand why they hated us. In house # 7 the oldest kid fired a weapon thru the living room window. After that I was never allowed to go near any window in the house. They burned a cross on our lawn (1953 this was). Flattened my father’s tires. Took Chalk, and wrote on the street JEW HERE with an arrow toward our house.
More, that I’ve put outta my head.
In the end that kid went to jail for murder in New york. One-by-One the other residents either moved or died. New people arrived and that bad stuff was over.
So, point is, I do, as do all Jewish people over the age of 60 today know what prejudice, discrimination, harassment, and the threat of physical danger means. Lower Class people can be exceptionally mean, because they have been reared from childhood to fear beatings and worse.
Get yourself a firearm, learn how to use it and have it properly registered, and carry it.
Better to have had it & never needed to use it, than to not have had it, and needed to use it. Yes ? !!!! You’ll still feel threatened, but you can defend thine-self. Dumb people always have to hate some identifiable group, to boost their own image – NEVER forget that.
While I am very “straight” I do have compassion for any group who are threatened by others. This is America, remember – not Germany !
epsphd,
Calling the cops when your a victim of a hate crime was your tipping point?
Exactly what did I write that “drove” you to post here?
Was it, contact the cops with the make and model of the car that the jackasses drove rather than emailing a local blog?
Or perhaps was it that I pointed out that fighting hate with more hate is senseless (or did you not see the remark about black man as hateful?).
Understand, I will not list every harm I have faced in order to have you “understand” me.
I don’t play the I’m more of victim than you game.
However, until rape is considered a “hate crime” against women, every time, I will continue to oppose its legislation.
But here, I struggle to find out what the “crime” is– is it against the law to scream a name at someone (even if it’s hurtful)?
But since it is clear you are worked up over this– for good reasons I share, and despite what I wrote above, I will add a personal detail:
As a Black man I have been screamed at, threatened (in Alabama no less), hit and had stuff thrown at me– along with a familiar racial slur– (rhymes with bigger), but I don’t know if any of it was a crime save for the physical actions.
Because as revulting as this episode is, I do not support making ignorance and words a crime.
However, the moment it manifests into action– put them under the jail.
To this end: Is a guy saying to a woman: “”Hey, you wanna have
sex? You want me to f***you? Want me to F*** YOU?”” a crime?
Sexual harassment? No. It’s not in a workplace context…..
Prof, would you consider human being #1 instilling fear into human being #2 where human being #2 is in great fear of bodily harm, possibly even being shot, as a crime or a hate crime, punisheable? (I would).
Freedom of speech stops at the doorstep when one group terrorizes another person or persons with fear of injury and/or death. No ? IMO, YES.
Paz;
yeah, the young black make gay bashers are perfect conservatives. At least as much as you are.
make= male
Calling the cops when your a victim of a hate crime was your tipping point?
Exactly what did I write that “drove” you to post here?
Was it, contact the cops with the make and model of the car that the jackasses drove rather than emailing a local blog?
Or perhaps was it that I pointed out that fighting hate with more hate is senseless (or did you not see the remark about black man as hateful?).
Understand, I will not list every harm I have faced in order to have you “understand” me.
I don’t play the I’m more of victim than you game.
However, until rape is considered a “hate crime” against women, every time, I will continue to oppose its legislation.
But here, I struggle to find out what the “crime” is– is it against the law to scream a name at someone (even if it’s hurtful)?
But since it is clear you are worked up over this– for good reasons I share, and despite what I wrote above, I will add a personal detail:
As a Black man I have been screamed at, threatened (in Alabama no less), hit and had stuff thrown at me– along with a familiar racial slur– (rhymes with bigger), but I don’t know if any of it was a crime save for the physical actions.
Because as revolting as this episode is, I do not support making ignorance and words a crime.
However, the moment it manifests into action– put them under the jail.
To this end: Is a guy saying to a woman: “”Hey, you wanna have sex? You want me to f***you? Want me to F*** YOU?”” a crime?
Sexual harassment? No. It’s not in a workplace context…..
anyways, prof and everyone else. peace.
i’m still getting the hang of comment box and unfortunately my detailed reply to the prof didn’t make it!
can all of u politically correct geeks get over the bullspit phrase – hate crime. it has no meaning. if a person gets assaulted,robbed, stabbed, shot, or god forbid raped…its a heinous crime…period. what good does it do to discriminate crimes into hate vs ‘regular’ crime?
affirmative action or reverse discrimination is still discrimination. in order to stop discriminations you must stop discriminating based on race.
This is disturbing for multiple reasons.
The original poster – Good idea voicing your experience. It was a shock moment so some of the items requested (license plate, car type) may not have been apparent observations at the moment (whereas fear and horror was first distress) but this will educate others what they should look for to alert officials if they encounter a similar experience.
Equally disturbing – I’m a black male in Montclair. I’m not gay not really give a crap who is or isn’t (as it doesn’t change the person) – similar to any incident which generalizes a group based on the actions of a few. I hope we have the common sense to judge events as isolated incidents by reckless individuals which happen to be a certain demographics VS. assume it is a pattern/condition plaguing that demographics.
Why is this important? You can assume the last terrorist attack on US soil was done by Arab/Muslim so you profile this group as the only folks against the US based on the actions of a few. However, the last few acts of terror in this country was via Asians (Binghamton, V.Tech) and gay black males (DC Snipers). Prior to 2001 let us not forget Timothy McVeigh.
The point here – We can easily assume a pattern/trend based on personal example of victimization by a bully – and we need to take-away it is a BULLY not an entire group.
As a black male the only gay citizens I hate are Rosie O’Donnell and Robin Williams (HEHE!) which has no linkage to who they hold hands, kids or sleep with.
‘kids’ was a typo of kiss
Professor Williams, the conduct of these low life bastards may not be a crime, but it is disgusting. You state that you are black too, so you probably are as ashamed as kevron is disgusted. It’s a law of life that when someone does something irresponsible, and if they look “different” than the victim, their entire culture, tribe or group suffers a reputation decline. So it should not surprise you if many fellow residents of Baristaville consider packing up and leaving.
Interesting how several posts begin with, “I’m not gay but…”
The fact is that we, as a community, should be appalled that this is happening in our community, in 2009. Doesn’t matter if the victims are gay, straight, black, white, Asian, whatever. It shouldn’t be happening to anyone, period.
We should be asking ourselves the questions, “Why is it happening?” and “Why are we continuing to let in happen?”
Spiro,
Again, I was commenting on kevron76’s dumb “threat” of: “Sadly some black heterosexual males will soon have the town to themselves if they continue to harass and beat gays in the manner of the past 2 months.”
And no, I don’t get “ashamed” of “my people” for doing dumb things anymore than I’m ashamed of a white kid doing the same thing.
Years ago I decided that it was not my responsibility to “uphold” the race, though I am saddened by how my generation and younger were not taught that our actions reflect upon the whole race (staying in school, doing well, being respectful, etc.)
It used to be: you think black folks are dumb, I’ll show you and get an A. Now it seems that the idea of many kids is: I’ll show you how dumb I am and get an F.
But as a rule, I stand clear of blaming an entire race for the dumbness of some members.
However, if you want to slight a “culture” that encourages this activity (the acceptance of homophobia and misogyny in “hip-hop”* for example), go ahead.
That’s different, because a culture can represents a bunch of different races.
(*Which is why I stopped listening to it years ago.)
I am gay, and …
Sandy wrote: “Get yourself a firearm, learn how to use it and have it properly registered, and carry it. Better to have had it & never needed to use it, than to not have had it, and needed to use it …”
Truer words were never written, and better advice never given.
If Matthew Sheperd had had a gun, he’d not have been crucified and tortured to death in 1998. And the animals shaped like men who killed him would not be alive and staining the face of the planet today.
(By the way, do people on this forum – and I refer of course to straight people – know who Matthew Sheperd was? Just curious.)
Do I know who Matthew Sheperd was?
Yes i do. Do you know who Harry T Moore was?
If Mathew Shepard had a gun it probably would have been taken away from him. He might have been shot with it (or maybe not). But certainly then afterwards, the creeps that shot him would have had a handgun amongst themselves with which to cause “mischief”.
The notion that simply owning a handgun makes a person an expert in it’s handling and use is like assuming that if you own a frying pan you can will automatically be a brilliant chef.
And yeah. I know who Mathew Shepard was.
dane,
Instead of repeating a number of hypothetical talking points (gun will be used against owner, putting more guns on the streets, ordinary people do not have training), ask yourself a simple question:
If you were Mathew Shepard, would you rather have had a means to defend yourself that night, or not?
Exactly.
An “armed to the teeth” population hardly seems to be the right way to deal with this problem. You may recall the fellow who shot some people by whom he felt threatened on the NY subway some years ago. I believe he was prosecuted for allegedly acting precipitously.
Spectator,
Are you referring to those nice kids who were selling cookies for old people and handicapped children, who approached Goetz?
Or the punks with criminal rap sheets- for serious crimes- who picked on the wrong guy?
And he more than “felt threatened,” they were robbing the guy!
Let’s not allow time to make these creeps into boy scouts.
They deserved what they got because if you attempt to rob someone, you might get killed.
That’s why most folks don’t partake.
This will probably infuriate those on this site ever likely to become wildly enraged over the littlest things, but the verbal abuse the original tipster refers to above, while certainly offensive-sounding, really isn’t much worse than the sort of catcalls heard any Saturday night either on Christopher Street or in downtown Provincetown.
That said, yes, of course, Courson, I remember Matthew “Sheperd” (sic). But if you’re going to get angry over this sad incident, it might help if you spelled the victim’s surname correctly.
But one might also profitably ask if anyone else posting frothily on this site remembers Jesse Dirkhising, and if they do remember that equally tragic victim also recall the comparative lack of media attention paid to the case.
So we have a distasteful incident reported above. (Which, interestingly, actually recalls Castro’s Cuba at its most vituperatively anti-homosexual, as Cubans lucky enough to have recently visited the workers’ paradise that is the “Pearl of the Antilles have told me more than once.) This nonetheless is hardly cause for genuine community alarm, and certainly can be handled via the ordinary cautions and police procedure.
I therefore chalk the tempest above to somewhat of a slow news weekend. (Sorry there, prof, but still, Montclair will never recall the Emmett Till-era South.)
Agreed. And I certainly was not trying to pretend otherwise.
Thank God for that, my friend.
AND—
Re-reading this, the best part of this whole thread was Banana Split’s comment: “was there any pudding thrown?”
That MUST be the baristanet question for any confrontation in town.
Well, I’m certainly no legal expert–but I looked up the definition of ‘assault’ on a legal dictionary (https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault) and here’s what it said:
“At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law. There is, however, an additional Criminal Law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful Battery.
Statutory definitions of assault in the various jurisdictions throughout the United States are not substantially different from the common-law definition.”
So those of you who are saying these fine young gentlemen did nothing illegal may actually be incorrect on that point. Since we also very recently had what police termed a bias attack (ie, a physical attack) against a gay man in Montclair (https://www.baristanetnew.wpengine.com/2009/05/alleged_bias_attack_in_montcla.php), maybe you could stretch your imaginations and try to understand why these men would have felt threatened even though this was “only” a verbal attack.
It never ceases to amaze me when white hetero men (and with the exception of prof w, I do assume that several of the other commenters here fall into that category) pronounce the concerns or fears of minorities to be silly or ‘little’ things when they’ve never had the experience of being threatened in this way. It’s very easy to term the idea of hate crimes to be ‘politically correct bullspit’ when you’ve never been and never will be the victim of one.
How many times in your life have you walked down the street with your wife or girlfriend and held her hand, put your arm around her shoulder, or kissed her on the cheek? Have you ever for a second had to think twice about doing one of those things, or worried that someone might say something shitty to you, or worse? I have. It’s a terrible feeling.
I can imagine how difficult it would’ve been to think of getting a license plate number under these circumstances. I do hope that if these unfortunate actions continue in Montclair that someone will have the opportunity to get a license plate or identifying info so that these creeps and bullies can be dealt with.
Kate, it’s the “imminent harmful or offensive contact” element makes it hard to a crime here.
The men were in a car, driving away.
The best way to understand this is someone is approaching you with a large stick or a gun saying, “I want your money or else.”
The harm and the contact are imminent.
But if I were in California, on the phone to you and said, “I want your money or else,” neither the harm or contact is imminent as I was, you know, in California.
However, your idea that under these circumstances it’s too much to ask for the victim to get a make/model/license plate is just plain wrong.
Understand, there are– dare I say– real victims of violent crimes who still have it in them to remember some detail about their attackers. I just have a hard time believing that these guys could not remember ANY detail of the car.
But they never attempted to call the cops. Did they…..
A community remains hostage to criminals if victims do not call the cops (and hold the cops to the fire to do something.)
“Tipping a blog” no matter how cathartic does NOTHING to help the next couple facing the same dumb, homophobic a-holes.
prof, based on the description it sounds to me like the guys in the car stuck around for a while making comments to the couple. I truly have no idea whether this could be considered ‘imminent harmful contact’ by a court, but the experience of this couple would have been *far* more threatening than your example of someone making threats over the phone from across the country. I can tell you I’ve most certainly felt threatened and feared physical harm by men who’ve harrassed me from cars in the past.
Since I wasn’t there, I have no idea why the couple didn’t or couldn’t get the license plate–but I do know that people have different reactions to being threatened. Yes, some people would have easily mentally recorded those details. Others might panic and not think to do it until it’s too late. I do agree that reporting an incident like this to the cops would be much more important than reporting it to a local blog, and I hope the couple did do that. (The fact they tipped the blog owners here doesn’t mean they didn’t tell the cops too.)
A car pulls up & those in it shout nasty things at a person, a couple, whatever. I am (of coarse) NOT saying to shoot at them!
But how about the car pulls away, goes around the block, returns to rob, beat and do whatever they please to a person, just because they are
Gay
Black
White
Asian
Jewish
Italian
Take your pick, whatever fits…..
Now the “ring-leader” out in front, you see he has a :
Gun
Knife
Stun Gun
You take out your weapon and use it.
A court will uphold your given right to use whatever force to spare you own life, should you feel your safety & well being & your very life is on the line.
I was not advocating killing people who call you ugly names.
R.I.P. Dr. Tiller. Shot down in a house of worship. Intolerance always has a tragic ending.
I’m a straight female, but I also have a harassment story. (And not one about me being harassed because I was female).
Years ago, when I was in college, my boyfriend and I were walking with a female friend down a main street in our college town. Two guys in a car started slowing down next to us and making comments. We didn’t respond to them, figuring that was the smartest thing to do, rather than do anything to incite them. Unfortunately, this didn’t stop them. One of them started yelling at us: “what do you think you’re looking at?”. We started moving off the sidewalk towards a gas station lot–we weren’t sure if the gas station was open or not but figured it was worth a shot. Someone might be around in case we needed help.
Suddenly the car screeched into the lot right in front of us, one yahoo jumped out and punched my boyfriend right in the head…I started screaming and my first instinct was to run and grab a large rock that the station was using as edging, in case I had to hit this guy with it to get him to stop.
The other guy in the car told the assaulter that it was enough, to get back in the car, etc. Thankfully, he did. I was so upset by this incident that when I got home I threw up so hard I burst a blood vessel in my eye.
I don’t think any of the 3 of us remembered the license plate or other details of the car or drivers. When you’re threatened you go into adrenaline overdrive and only remember the important things (I was focusing on screaming as loud as I could & looking for the biggest rock I could find!!)
The thing is, you don’t really know when verbal harassment will turn into physical harassment…it was only a matter of seconds in my story. We expected the two guys to just yell comments at us and drive off…but that didn’t happen.
“It never ceases to amaze me when white hetero men (and with the exception of prof w, I do assume that several of the other commenters here fall into that category) pronounce the concerns or fears of minorities to be silly or ‘little’ things when they’ve never had the experience of being threatened in this way. It’s very easy to term the idea of hate crimes to be ‘politically correct bullspit’ when you’ve never been and never will be the victim of one.”
What pc planet do you live on. I’ve been threatened, beat up, had knives to my throat because I’m white, by black and hispanic gangs. Your “amazement” classes you as a laserlame type useless idiot who beleives that by definition minorities can’t be racist. Your wings are flapping.
And the contest for victimhood continues….
After The Biggest Loser has run its course, the networks can cash in with The Saddest Victim. Judging from the comments here, they’ll have no shortage of wannabes.
Your wings are flapping.
Your lips are flapping. And all I hear is ‘wah wah wah wah wah wah.’ [a la the grownups in the Peanuts cartoons.]
Cathar wrote: “But if you’re going to get angry over this sad incident, it might help if you spelled the victim’s surname correctly.”
Sorry, sire. I meant to write “Shepard.”
With respect to Jesse Dirkhising (sp?), yes, I do remember how this young (13-year old) victim of rape and murder at the hands of a pair of homosexual criminals was used by the Right (and particularly the Religious Right) to promote the point that heterosexual persons were as much at risk if not overtly victimized by homosexuals as the reverse. How could anyone who read the National Review, Weekly Standard or American Spectator not know who Jesse Drikhising was?
Back in 1999, the murder received only regional media coverage until a Washington Times article ran the story a month afterward noting the lack of national coverage in contrast to that given to the death of Matthew Shepard. The high-profile Shepard murder was approaching its first anniversary and as such was getting another round of national attention coupled with updates on pending hate crime legislation. Prompted by coverage in the Washington Times, the Dirkhising case gained notoriety as conservative commentators compared media coverage of the two cases and explored the issues of what was considered a hate crime.
A tragic, horrible incident exploited by the blowhards, liars and psychopaths living on the periphery of American politics, in whose pathetically warped and woefully misguided world-view heterophobia is as much a problem as homophobia, racial discrimination against white people (especially white males) is a serious social issue and the legal right of women to reproductive choice is the moral equivalent of the Holocaust.
Anyhow, enough of this. Just one thing: What might Cathar have been doing on a Saturday night either on Christopher Street or in downtown Provincetown?
(Note to Dr. Doom: as a lifelong member of the NAACP, I would be sorely remiss if I did not know who Harry Moore was, wouldn’t I?)
crank,
With Leno moving to 10pm, ABC and CBS are looking for cheap alternative— and you have it.
Jokes aside, I’d watch the Saddest Victim.
Who would host?
Wow! 40 comments on a weekend post!
Guns don’t solve problems as police officers have been car jacked. And usually by the time they reach for their weapons they are killed by a nervous assailant who thought it would be an easy get-away.
A victim minded person with a chip on his shoulder might have his gun ready to shoot someone if they pull up slowly next to him with 3 stereotypical males but the youths might be asking for directions.
The post about adrenaline is a good one – regardless of protection or what you read it is hard to anticipate violent crisis shock because we so rarely encounter it in our daily world. I caution the majority of citizens in Montclair are safe and the majority of teenagers/youth or whatever race are innocent and non-confrontational but the actions of a few can’t be eliminated as if you were successful you would eliminate drugs, rapes, robberies, discrimination across the globe.
May the verbal abuser get bad karma and may the victim of this verbal assault recover from the shock and realize he and his partner were/are safe, will walk another street together happy and they will encounter black males who look at them as two human males and nothing more or less.