So here we are, on the day set aside by our great nation to celebrate, not just the end of swimming season and the seasonal wearing of white, but the organized labor movement. What uncanny timing, because just last week, DeCamp bus drivers went on strike, protesting management’s plan to freeze wages for the next five years.
Last week was somewhat of a dry run for the strike, since so many people were on vacation. The fun starts tomorrow, when the full load of Montclair-area bus riders jump the train to the city.
So on this Labor Day, we put the question to you: who do you support in the strike?
[polldaddy poll=”3723132″]
(bias: I’m a Union guy.)
I support the workers as signing a 5 year contract with no increase is crazy- a lot can happen in 5 years. It seems Management is looking back, and projecting a continuance of bad economic times, while 5 years from now, we could be entering great economic times- who really knows?
But to sign up for $0 now sounds dumb.
Moreover, unless NJT plans on building more tracks or adding more whistle blowing trains, it seems that the bus riding folks will only increase (or at least stay the same), so it is not like DeCamp is facing a drastically lower projection of passengers- or are they?
DeCamp should open their books, because IF they are making no money, the Union can’t really complain. But by not opening their books, it seems as if DeCamp has something to hide…
As for Health Ins., since almost every Union is now asked to contribute, I need more info on this “large initial deductible” to say if the Union or Management is being unreasonable.
Because IF the workers were paying nothing for years and are now asked to cover an annual $300 deductible, that doesn’t sound unreasonable. But IF they were paying $100 annual deductible and DeCamp wants to increase it to $750, that’s unreasonable.
So, like many things, I need more info- from both sources- to render a real opinion.
how can one support the workers in the wake of friday’s jobs report? i reiterate, headline number is 9.6%, 1 out of every 10 people in the labor force is looking for work and cant find it…. real number is higher, U6 is like 17%. you would think the workers would be happy that they have a job for the next 5 years, comp/benefit package aside. i bet there are a ton of unemployed qualified people that would take that deal all day long. also if the economy drastically improves lets say in yr 3 or 4 then presumably there would be other opportunities for the drivers to go else where if they were not happy, lets keep things in perspective here, most employees in this country don’t get to set their comp package, it is dictated, if you dont like it, look for work elsewhere until you find it. i think avg time to find a new job right now is like 44 weeks which is of course historically high, but one could take the 5 yr freeze and start looking now and be out by next yr, striking is childish. it served a purpose back in the day when working conditions where unbearable and employee health was an issue, again, now it is just childish.
Taking sides without the facts is stupid The Star Ledger and other papers print nothing about what the union or management is actually asking for or what the union gets now or the fact that management is demanding a 5 year wage freeze or what sort of profits the company makes or how much less Decamp employees makes compared to NJT employees, or what is likely to happen if Decamp goes out of business (could 7000 NJ people lose their jobs to New Yorkers?) The Ledger doesn’t print the facts. How can anyone know what is going on.
A Decamp rider
taking sides can absolutely be done, it just depends on the basis. look, decamp management might or might not be uncaring, poor managers, who might or might not be making a lot, very little, or no money….. the point is, going on strike is stupid regardless of the scenario. i compare it to a 6 year old dropping to the ground and crying when he/she doesn’t get what they want…. throw in the fact that 1 in 10 people cant get a job right now and it looks especially stupid, i compare that to the same 6 yr old dropping to the ground and crying bc he/she doesnt get ice cream after dinner in front of starving homeless children who did not even get dinner….. you have a problem with your job, then work hard at it while searching for other work, like i said that might take a year to find, but at least you dont look like a whining baby
stayhyphy,
The idea that you “absolutely” can takes sides without facts is telling (as is your grammar, and I would add the general use of “absolutely,” but that’s another story…).
Likewise, your idea that these UNION workers should just take what they can because times are tough for some flies in the face of collective bargaining.
Do they get to break they contract and get a raise when times are good? Or does it only work one way?
These are Union workers- like them, or their Union, or Unionism is general, I don’t care, but they bargain for an agreement for all members for a defined time period. So they must understand, as does Management, that one cannot predict the future and entering into a 5-year contract can prove to be good or bad depending on economics.
But unlike you, I need more info to see who is being unreasonable. And until DeCamp opens their books, we will never know…
I’m with Stayhyphy. How can you go on strike in this economic climate? We have Ph.D.s who can’t find work as Wal*Mart greeters and these buffoons go on strike. Doesn’t add up.
You took the job, you knew what you were getting into. Not too many people are getting raises these days (those who happen to have jobs).
And alienating your loyal ridership is not a good way to align people with your cause. I support the stranded commuters and no one else.
So they should take whatever is offered because some have nothing or less? That makes no sense.
And remember, the OWNERS of Decamp are doing this– don’t put it on the drivers, I’m sure they would be happy to work IF the owners offered something in good faith. But because DeCamp won’t show or offer any proof of their financial position, why should the workers just take their word?
I understand that “these economic” times are tough, but no one has yet to address my question: “Do they get to break they contract and get a raise when times are good? Or does it only work one way?”
Also, workers strike when it will do good for them. The idea that they must put the passengers ahead of themselves and their families is comical. Really. How many times do passengers make plans based on whether it may affect DeCamp drivers?
Simply: why are you asking the drivers to do more than anyone else would?
“So they should take whatever is offered because some have nothing or less? That makes no sense.”
Well, it does. There really is little or nothing out there. I would rather have something less than perfect than nothing at all. Your bills and expenses won’t wait until something better comes along.
“And remember, the OWNERS of Decamp are doing this– don’t put it on the drivers, I’m sure they would be happy to work IF the owners offered something in good faith. But because DeCamp won’t show or offer any proof of their financial position, why should the workers just take their word?”
I do agree with you here…DeCamp should make their financial position public in good faith. But I still blame the drivers, in part. Most of them offer shoddy service and are rude to boot.
“Also, workers strike when it will do good for them. The idea that they must put the passengers ahead of themselves and their families is comical. Really. How many times do passengers make plans based on whether it may affect DeCamp drivers?”
Uh, if there were no passengers, there would be no DeCamp. They need us more than we need them. However inconvenient, we can always find alternative transportation sources. If they’re on strike, they don’t get paid. If they alienate their customer base for too long, they’re gone.
this is a free country im not suggesting they should work there for 5 years thru potentially better economic times. if the economy improves they are free to look for work, in fact they are free to look for work right now…. my point is, whining about it is just stupid… look, you stated your union bias and it is super obvious in your comments …. i have no bias, just looking at this with an open mind and stating what is pretty obvious… let me ask you this, why even have a 5 yr contract? what if there is super inflation 2 yrs out, what good is the $0.45/hr raise they are asking for going to do. i know, i know if we all drop to the ground and cry about it maybe we can negotiate a better deal at the expense of the owners of the company. that attitude did wonders for GM, billions in unfunded liabilities bc they were raped by “collective bargaining” …. $2.00 to manufacture the same spark plug that costs honda $1.00 to make … maybe as a taxpayer who has had to foot the bill for GM i am just generally opposed to unions and collective bargaining, maybe i am biased in that regard, but i digress
For the posters above who wonder how the drivers can strike in this economic climate, I wonder if you would sign a contract right now to stay in your current job for the next five years at no salary increase? No snark intended in that question. Maybe you would. Personally I wouldn’t and I wouldn’t advise anyone else to either, but there’s so much fear out there that maybe some of you would take that deal.
I support the drivers. They provide a valued service and they are using what little leverage they have to try to earn a better living. Management is not being transparent, which is their right but it makes it hard to sympathize with their position.
Salary increase? What’s that? I haven’t had one in 3 years and neither have my co-workers or friends in corporate jobs (the ones who are still gainfully employed, that is). Gee, I would like to go on strike some days, too, but I don’t belong to a union so I just tough it out and am thankful I have a job.
I wonder why, if these blue-collar union jobs are so cushy, there isn’t more competition for these positions?
ceciltank,
“I wonder if you would sign a contract right now to stay in your current job for the next five years at no salary increase”
hell yes i would…. who even gets 5 yr contracts?? i could be laid off next month with no work period!! in fact my comp over the past 3 yrs has been 50% of what has been verbally promised to me and i am very grateful to still have a job. Also those contracts are one sided in terms of performance, the drivers are free to leave for better work! i really dont understand how you can be fine with people whining like little children about their comp package, this is not what made america great. defend it if you want, but there really is no basis for that defense.
@profwilliams,
First off, you shouldn’t be so quick to correct people (stayhyphy) for their grammar lest you, yourself are sleeping with the Chicago Manual of Style under your pillow. “Do they get to break they contract and get a raise when times are good?” This sounds like the sort of trash talk scribed on the walls of a port-a-johnny. But to quote you, that’s another story. In my opinion, one there’s no need for here.
I also concur that these people should be happy to have jobs in this climate. As someone who has recently come out of school and has yet to find a job, this really grinds my gears (no pun intended). So many people are struggling to pay bills and getting further and further in debt. Not only that—these same people (thanks to the good folks at DeCamp) may just have job interviews tomorrow. They’ll stand at the bus stop like a jackass with no clue as to what has happened, missing the potential to put food on their table.
A good friend had been standing at the Park St. stop tonight trying to get home to Brooklyn. DeCamp could have at least had the decency to post signs about the strike on the kiosk. I just found out about this and called him as he was waiting there. Fortunately he was able to make the last train out of Bay St. just in time.
Stay classy DeCamp.
Also, nothing on their web site, no outgoing voice message when you call their office. Where is Ronald Reagan when you need him? (Or someone like him?)
We had four DeCamp refugees on the bus out of Willowbrook this morning. They were having some kind of issue with tickets. I don’t think they were trying to use DeCamp tickets–the word seems to have spread quickly about no cross-honouring. But I’d never seen the kind of tickets they had. Something light blue? Is that a train thing? The NJT starter came over and helped them out, though.
Mrs.SmartyPants: Can you reconcile the dchotomy of your Ayn Rand-ish “pull up the gangplank mentality” rant regarding workers just trying to improve their lot,and “where’s Reagan when you need him”, with your cll for demands to know how much “profit” DeCamp make? (it’s a private company). ?
Took train today from Upper Montclair Station. Bought round trip ticket on the train and was told I had to switch trains at Newark Broad Street…I was under the impression this was a direct train, no? At any rate, they gave me a pink paper ticket. Wasn’t an un pleasant trip, a bit inconvenient, but not unpleasant. The station at Newark Broad is actually nice: clean, comfortable, there’s someone there to answer questions, etc. Got to work on time. Have to check into why this was not a direct train, though.
Re Crankydave: Do you support the fact that DeCamp has no info on their web site or voice mail and thereby are keeping commuters in the dark about the strike? These are not just workers “trying to improve their lot,” they are sticking it to us. Can’t you see that?
MM, many of the trains are direct to Penn Sta without a stop in Newark, others do stop in Newark, check the on line schedule and they differentiate the two on that schedule.
I called and actually apoke with a very nice human! (You can tell I wasn’t calling DeCamp). I need to take the 6:54, not the 7:01, which is not direct…problem solved!
I want to thank the DeCamp bus drivers.
Thank you for being late many times. Thank you for being surly, rude and unhelpful. Thank you for calling me out for breastfeeding my baby on the bus. Thank you for arguing with with over stopping at the legally designed bus stop.
Most of all thank you for this vile strike. I love how my husband has now had an added half hour and to his commute each morning. I love how you expect to get a defined benefit contribution plan while the rest of us schmoes suffer with a 401k.
Oh and in case you are too stupid to figure out it (and we all know how smart bus drivers are!) I was being sarcastic!
My property taxes are up and I’ve gotten one lousy three percent raise in five years. They laid off a teacher at my local school and the state is a financial mess. You don’t like DeCamp? DON’T WORK THERE! But don’t penalize innocent hard working people like my husband. Drive the bus and be grateful you have a halfway decent job in a lousy economy.
I’m a liberal who is usually sympathetic to workers. But this strike is just stupid. The truth is that any pay raise the bus drivers get will come from raised ticket prices. Since most of us haven’t gotten a raise I fail to see what makes bus drivers so special.
My thoughts exactly, Anastacia.
To the drivers: You signed on to be a bus driver. The United States allows people to pick their own careers. If you are not happy with your current job then go work for a competitor or go to trade school or college to learn another profession. I guarantee that people would be lined up around the block to replace you. You are not that speshul.
thank you anastacia for echoing my sentiment. The strike is simply childish, period. Given the economic climate it is a$$-backwards and for the last time, the drivers are free to leave!!! its not like they are being sentenced to 5 years in prison, they can go and get a better job, and this would do one of 2 things. Lets say they cant find a better job, it should validate the fact that their current job is maybe a good spot, or two, they find a better job and jump ship. it is insulting to watch/hear a group of adults whine like babies.
Union bashers are a funny lot. Because of unions we have 2 days off per week, for example. Union membership and influence has been on the wane for years. It’s not a coincidence that as organized labor has fallen, wage disparity has widened.
No money for an increase? Decamp raised its fares because of and when gasoline prices spiked with crude oil a couple years ago. They did not lower the price when gasoline prices came down. How bout giving the drivers a piece of the ‘fuel surcharge’ inspired profits? No need to raise fares.
(skkp: a typo does not bad grammar make- consistent choices- like failing to capitalize, etc.- does.)
ceciltank speaks truth.
And still, NO ONE has addressed my lingering question (probably because it flies in the face of the “you should be happy to have any job” crowd): “Do they get to break they contract and get a raise when times are good? Or does it only work one way?”
But let’s play this game further, should they work for minimum wage? Really, if they are happy just to have a job, I guess you support them working for the lowest amount possible. Or perhaps they should work for free and just take the benefits, after all, many folks have no benefits.
Dumb. The idea that DeCamp bus drivers have to bear the brunt of others economic pain makes very little sense. (And still the Company could be raking in the cash- no one is calling on them to reduce prices- but we’ll never no because their books are off limit.)
Oh, well for all involved, I do hope it gets settled.
I gotta go drive to work…..
Prof: Don’t they know what they will be earning when they take the job?
Not sure of the answer to your other question, about breaking the contract. I suppose you would have to ask someone who belongs to a union. The workers pay union dues and count on the union to do what’s in their best interest. I know that in some unionized jobs (like the U.S. Postal Service), there’s a cap on what you can earn. But honestly, I don’t know the answer regarding the bus drivers’ union.
The answer to your question prof is NO, unless one happens to be a sports star.
Martha: No, I don’t “support” DeCamp for not putting anything on their website or phone. What are they going to say? “we’re talking to the union…” ? what else would you expect? What happened the last time NJT went on strike? anyone remember? did they communicate?. All the people calling for thr breakup of DeCamp: the devil you know is better than the one you don’t.
Well, call me strange but I think it’s important to keep the lines of communication open. Even if it’s as vague as “We are currently in talks with management about….” Just as a courtesy (yes, I know that’s in short supply at DeCamp). Just to give us a clue about what’s going on. A “We apologize for any inconvenience” would be nice, too.
Like it or not the economy sucks right now. Were the drivers to strike when the times were good and they were getting stuck some of us might even support them. But times suck right now.
They’ve laid off a teacher in my daughter’s school, increased my property taxes substantially and decreased services in my town. Why should we all suffer while bus drivers believe themselves exempt from economic realities?
The idea that the rest of us should bear the pain because DeCamp bus drivers want a raise makes no sense either. DeCamp owners are not rich. Any money that the drivers will ultimately get will come out of increased ticket prices on commuters. How is that fair? These are hard economic times for nearly ALL of us. The bus drivers need to get over that fact and get back to work.
It seems like many of the arguments against the strike boil down to the idea that the general conditions in the economy are relevant to the particular problems of the bus drivers. But there’s no direct connection between the two. The employment rate for DeCamp drivers (and every other employee in the U.S.) is 100%. They all have jobs. So it makes no sense to say that the terms of that employment should be dictated by the fact that someone else is unemployed or the completely contradictory suggestion that they should join the ranks of the unemployed and apply for a position at NJT or some other bus service that has better wages.
Likewise, they are contract employees and there are employment contracts being renewed and renegotiated every single day. That’s part of the normal process and why these contracts have terms. If a CEO can renew his or her contract then so can a bus driver. Which is what the union is supposed to do. Take an individual employee who has no leverage and collectively bargain with other employees to get a fair agreement.
I don’t know what “fair” is in this situation, but it’s not fair to make someone work outside of the their contract when DeCamp agreed to the term in the first place. And if you, like me, don’t have a contract with your employer then you also have the option to quit your job and apply for one that does (seems kind of silly now, huh?).
Finally, why do people assume that the bus drivers aren’t under the same financial pressures as everyone else? Let’s say you’ve been working for DeCamp for ten years, which means it was a couple of contracts ago and the pay and benefits package you got at the time was very different than what it is now. You have a house, spouse and 3 kids. Your property taxes are up. Your spouse had her/his hours cut back. Groceries are up. Gas is up. Utilities are up. And now your employer wants to decrease your take home pay with increased health costs. One of your kids has a health problem which makes that even more of an impact on you. In other words, what if a DeCamp bus driver has the same problems that everyone else is struggling with? What would you do? Take the bad deal that’s offered and won’t be enough to take care of your family? Or do you hope the Union can cut a deal that will allow you take care of your family for the next five years? Hard choice, isnt’ it?
The drivers may have jobs right now. But if they keep up this strike the company could easily hire someone else or go out of business altogether. Should the driver confront either one of those actions he will be out of a job. And if he’s out of a job well I’m going to let him in on a secret: finding another job is not all that easy in this economy.
In the meantime thousands of people are facing horrific commutes because of these driver’s insane demands. Many all of us I can guarantee have faced the same lack of wage increases, increased costs and increased employer demands on our salaries. We’ve tightened our belts and taken on additional jobs or training. Why should we sympathize with drivers who somehow believe themselves immune to the economic forces that govern the rest of us?
The teachers haven’t gone on strike. The mailmen have not gone on strike. The police, firemen, librarians and other public employees have all faced problems with funding and budget cuts. NONE of them have gone on strike.
Only the bus drivers. That says volumes about them, about their sense of entitlement in a bad economy. None of it is good. You cannot get blood from a stone. And if the net result of their stupid strike is that ticket prices rise on the rest of us well I honestly hope they get none of their demands. The rest of us are not here to make sure that you get the perfect job.
Well said, A.
If they weaken the company even further by this strike and the company goes out of business, then they will have killed the goose who lays the golden eggs. Then everyone loses.
I still don’t understand where the assumption that the drivers think themselves immune to the economy comes from? What shows that they think they are better than “the rest of us”?
If DeCamp were really going to be put out of business, they would open their books and show it. But apparently they have enough in their accounts to try to outlast the strikers.
I am going to try to put this another way. I am not nor do I think that anyone else is suggesting that the drivers should accept minimum wage or that they should be happy simply because they are way better off or even marginally better off than those who are currently unemployed or under employed. I am suggesting that striking (crying about it) is not the way to go about their discontent, especially in this economic climate. Striking hurts the company, the drivers, and potentially the customers. While I believe that most of the low hanging fruit has already been harvested by collective bargaining, i agree in places it can still be used for good. This is not one of those examples. Attempting to hold Decamp hostage simply to improve comp is like i have already said, childish. Finally why does no one address the fact that they are free to leave!! Yes the 5 yr contract can be broken, they can walk whenever they want.
I’ve had my share of bad experiences with DeCamp, but I don’t envy the driver’s job. The whole point of a strike is to bring the company to the bargaining table. I don’t know anything about the current DeCamp contract or recent negotiations so I can’t say whether the ATU’s position is excessive. What I do know is that DeCamp hasn’t lowered the fares since the gas prices came back down. Oh, and most public employees (police, fire, teachers, etc.) cannot strike by law.
I would have just a bit more respect for the DeCamp whiners if pressure had not been brought to bear to disallow other forms of NJ transit to accept DeCamp tickets.
Right now the people taking the double whammy of a worse commute and increased commuting costs are the commuters. How is it fair that we should suffer a financial loss because of actions my family had nothing to do with?
The DeCamp employees are a kind defacto public employee. DeCamp only operates with the agreement of NJ law. They should not be allowed to strike either. Or fired for doing so.
The assumption that the drivers think they are better than the rest of us comes from some of their demands. They want a defined benefit contribution. Most American workers don’t have one. They want a raise. Most American workers haven’t gotten one. They’re striking in the middle of a bad economy when all of us know people who are unemployed.
Again all of this comes across as people who do not understand the economic realities of our times. Were the DeCamp people huge millionaires that would give just a bit of sympathy for the workers. But there’s no evidence that the owners are particularly rich.
In the long term the truth is that any pay raise the strikers get will likely come out of increased fares and ultimately out of our paychecks. In the short time the drivers have managed to increase our commutes and take money out of our pockets because we can’t use prepaid DeCamp bus tickets.
Under those circumstances why would any driver imagine most commuters to be on his side? I, for one, will never forgive the drivers for these actions. They have lost what very little respect I had for them.
Anaconda, since you don’t give a rats ass about the drivers, how do you think they feel about you?
401k plans are a joke. Why would anyone try to bargain for a 401k, particularly at the beginning of a negotiation.
If they can get a raise then good for them.
As Martha old dear’s been telling us, life’s about choices. If you don’t like decamp, take njt.
You actually hear very litle about the owners of DeCamp. What do they think about all of this? You hear and read about Gary Pard but he is only the CEO. Where are the owners in all this mess?
How do I think they feel about me? I don’t know. I do know that DeCamp bus drivers are frequently late and often surly and rude. They’re actually some of the nastiest public employees I’ve ever met with an attitude that reminds of one of Soviet Russia.
All they’ve done with their vile strike is make my husband’s commute longer and increase our commuting expenses. 401k’s are only a joke if you’re too dumb to understand finance and make one work for you.
I’m sick of bus drivers who apparently believe they’re some sort of uber privileged class immune from the economic realities that govern the rest of us.
I have both lived in and visited other cites, both here in the US and abroad and I echo Anastaica: I have never, in my more than half century on this planet, encountered a ruder bunch of public employees than the DeCamp bus drivers (there ARE exceptions, I realize that, but for the most part, they’re the worst).
Last night, a woman sitting next to me on the train (another DeCamp refugee), asked a question of the conducter and not only did she get an answer to her question, she got a smile. In fact, she even remarked on that fact!
With DeCamp, if you ask an innocent question, you may or may not get an answer but you WILL get attitude, a gruff bark or grunt. You have to know that if you take a job as a bus driver that people are going to ask you questions…it comes with the territory.
I’ve rode the #66 for 18 yrs. Vast majority of drivers are courteous to me. Generally the on bus in the AM is on-time, unless weather or traffic problems interfee. Evenings, roughly leav on-time, again, depending on the variables all buses are subject to. They go around blockages on Rte 3, instead of just sitting in traffic. I’ve never seen the boorish behavior described in various posts. I’ve seen drivers get off the bus to help a handicapped passenger across the street.
401k’s are the enablers of the psychopaths on Wall St.
Why couldn’t Decamp have spent some of the last year negotiating with the drivers? Why is nobody not surprised that resulted in a strike? Why do people who post here lash out senselessly? Probably all the significant facts can be bulleted on a single page. Where is that? All I read here is mostly a lot of emotional noise. I suggest negotiation as a way out of this dilemma. Is that unreasonable? It was negotiation that got the cooling off period. Only negotiation can settle the strike. Finger-pointing is useless. Emotion is useless. Calm down folks. Encourage both sides to talk it out. And if it takes a fare-raise, I’ll be glad to chip in my share. 100 employees? 7000 riders? Do the numbers.
My name is Dan, and I’m a commuter.