The 2010 The 2010 Montclair Democratic headquarters had its grand opening last night. The headquarters is located at 494 Bloomfield Ave. and was completely packed. Congressman Bill Pascrell was in attendance, as well as Glen Ridge Mayor Peter Hughes, Montclair’s Deputy Mayor Kathryn Weller-Demming and Third Ward Councilor Nick Lewis.
Brendan Gill (pictured), Chairman of the Montclair Democratic Party, started the night off by saying how proud he was of the change in voting Montclair has taken over the past several years. “I am proud to say now that Montclair is the bluest town in the state of New Jersey,” he says followed by loud applause. 
Every year the Montclair democratic headquarters changes its location to become more visible to the public. Last year, it was on South Willow Street. “We picked this location because it’s the heart of downtown Montclair,” Gill told Baristanet.
What do you think of the front and center location in NJ’s “bluest town”? Were you in last night’s crowd? night?
The bluest town.
The highest taxes. The worst debt.
At least they’re not using the word “democratic” to describe a town where we don’t elect the school board, the mayor sneaks in his cronies into paid positions and tries to vote himself an extra six months in office.
The only thing that is going to get me through the rest of the day is the slim hope that this was all some kind of sarcastic performance art.
When I see my property tax bill, I definitely feel blue.
I wonder if there is any correlation between Montclair being the “Bluest” town in the state and Montclair being a fiscal basketcase, riddled with debt, skyrocketing property taxes and led by an incompetent Mayor who thinks nothing of spending other people’s money.
Dog Bites Man. Let me know when the Republican HQ opens in the Bluest Town in NJ(TM). Now that will be news.
I thought we were trying to be green?
“I’m Just a Red State Woman Livin’ the Blue State Blues.”
Actually, Mr. Mitty, Millburn has the highest taxes in the state, and the mayor is a Republican.
But don’t worry! Democrats are still responsible for cancer, earthquakes, drug abuse, and daytime TV.
Actually, Mr. Mitty, Millburn has the highest taxes in the state, and the mayor is a Republican.
That can’t be true. EVERYONE knows that all Republicans are fiscal conservatives, who would sooner walk to their offices barefoot than spend a dime of the taxpayers money. Unless there was some kinda war they wanted to start.
“Democrats are still responsible for cancer, earthquakes, drug abuse, and daytime TV.” Well, maybe not earthquakes. 😉
Tsunamis, then?
Where was Donald Payne??
Does he not represent Montclair also?
No, hurricanes. And stronger ones at an increased frequency because they believe in climate change.
BlueWave is tired of being tied to the Dems.
The last straw was when the Dems changed the name of the party to
THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH, BUT TAXES NEED TO BE RAISED party.
I think they also have the top High School in the State.
Yes, this is true, Kevin. If I can find the list of high schools, I will post here. But Millburn leads the pack.
https://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_and_schools/highschoolrankings/2010-top-high-schools-alphabetical-order.html
Well, that is conclusive evidence that Republicans breed smarter children.
By some figurings. croiagusanam, Moorestown is in fact the New Jersey municipality with the highest property taxes. Others might plausibly suggest Alpine or Medford Lakes. In any event, such an accurate determination seems almost impossible to actually make without data not easily available to most of us. (And we all know, nonetheless, that soon-to-disappear Teterboro has one of the lowest property tax rates in the state for individual homeowners, that’s partially why it’s being broken up.)
There is even a radio commercial playing lately (I never remember from which party, but does it really matter?) which claims that Passaic County, from whence our esteemed Congressman Pascrell hails, in fact has the state’s highest average property taxes.
According to NJ state tax office, cromagnon, Millburn has one of the lowest tax rates in Essex County.
Nice try, though.
Your link refers to the effective tax rate, which as noted in the text should not be used for comparison.
I would refer you to blog.nj.com/njv_mark_dionno/2009/10/millburn-residents-hurt-by-pro.html
You could then reference the NJ Taxpayers Alliance if you wish to investigate further.
Good effort, wally, and thanks for playing the game. There is a home version for you to pick up on your way out.
Yes, cathar, I saw that item about Passaic county as well. As you said, this designation as “the highest” is pretty hard to pin down.
But we do know that it is not, as Mr. Mitty claimed, Montclair that holds that “honor”.
Nice try croiagusanam. Montclair 2009 tax rate: 2.387. Millburn 2009 tax rate: 1.76.
A house assessed at 700k in Millburn would have paid $12,320 in taxes based on the 2009 rate. One in Montclair would have paid $16,709.
Now according to the state of NJ, the average home in Millburn is assessed at 93.12% of value, while the average home in Montclair is assessed at 103.47% of value.
https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/chap123/2011/chap123ess.pdf
That makes our Millburn house worth $751,700 and our Montclair house worth $676,525 making the effective Millburn Tax rate 1.639 and the true Montclair tax rate 2.469.
Our taxes in Montclair are about 50% higher than those in Millburn. Millburn may have the highest average tax bill in the state, but that is because there are so many multi-million dollar estates in town that skew the average tax bill higher. I wish I were paying Millburn taxes. They actually have a pretty good deal compared to us.
Oh and let’s not forget. For their tax dollars they also get the #1 ranked school district in the state, while we get…
….a school district with a wide SES range.
If you don’t know by now what effect a high SES has on educational outcomes, then I’m at a loss. You may want to do some reading at this site:
https://www.eric.ed.gov:80/
I love tudlow. She argues with the air.
gator, there’s a home version of the game for you, too.
millburn.patch.com/articles/officials-state-tax-data-is-flawed
Wish I could say the feeling was mutual, Richard.
Would you like something a little more concrete to match your cognitive abilities?
It’s ridiculous to compare Millburn’s school rankings with Montclair’s because the districts have very different demographics.
@Tudlow You are correct regarding the range of SES and educational outcomes.
What other towns in NJ are identified by color? Are there any stats that compare tax rates by red or blue towns?
Someone get on that will you?
You are confusing tax bill with tax rate, cro. Of course Millburn has higher tax bills. Their houses are worth more.
By the way, that link you gave to the nj.com blog is dead.
It’s ridiculous to compare Millburn’s school rankings with Montclair’s because the districts have very different demographics.
It should be possible, with a bit of statistics, to factor out these demographic differences. I wonder what that would show. Does anyone know?
On second thought, the sample sizes are probably too small for anything meaningful.
If you would like to do some research and prepare a manuscript, I will gladly lend you my expertise and provide some feedback.
The state already disaggregates this data. In towns like Glen Ridge, Mountain Lakes, Chatham, etc. the number of disadvantaged students is small or in some cases non-existent. If your question is, how do affluent students in Montclair perform relative to affluent students in Millburn, etc. the answer is that they are virtually the same. SES is ALWAYS the greatest determining factor in academic performance rates. ALWAYS. There are schools like McNair in Jersey City, etc. that prove that less affluent, largely minority students can and do perform well when all of the pieces are in place. But to expect Montclair to score like Mountain Lakes at this point, using these types of tests, is wishful thinking.
Of course, cro, but my question is different. Do affluent kids at quasi-urban Montclair do as well as similar kids at Millburn, who don’t have to share their school with kids who don’t care a whit about school? In other words, when you account for socio-economic status, are Montclair schools as good as Millburn’s?
I suspect not. But you can’t tell this from aggregate data one way or the other.
It’s the question of a consumer of education, not the question of an educator interested in the general welfare.
We could go on all night, wally (and there’s a good chance you will) as to tax rates, tax bills, etc. etc. (or, if you prefer, blah blah blah).
My post to wally was simply designed to counter this false link between high taxes and “blue” (read “democrat”) local government. NJ is pure and simple a high tax state. Whether its Millburn, Montclair, Glen Ridge, Alpine, Rumson –they have all along with others been cited as the most heavily taxes towns in the state — they are all TOO DAMN HIGH. The need to drag one’s overall political agenda, as wally so clearly meant to do, is wearying and off-topic. One could very well be a bearded, Berkeley-educated bike-riding Lionel Jospin fane, and still think the taxes are — you guessed it — TOO DAMN HIGH!
I don’t know how that “consumer” defines “as well as”.
College acceptance rates?
Prestige of colleges to which students matriculate?
Average incomes 10 years out?
Give me a measure that you would accept as “proof”.
What has been demonstrated over many years, and what has in fact landed Montclair in court on occasion, is that these affluent students do not in fact “share” the school with disadvantaged students. The affluent ones are in the high level classes, the poorer kids in the remedial classes. This is what the famous “gap” is all about. They may be in the same building, but they are not having the same experience. They may attend the same school, but they are not receiving the same attention.
I think that well-prepared, motivated kids at Montclair High get an education equal to that Millburn kids get. But again, by what measure? Mine may differ from yours.
Correction — in my post prior to the last, “wally” should read “walter”.
walleroo, if I understand your question, croi did answer it:
“If your question is, how do affluent students in Montclair perform relative to affluent students in Millburn, etc. the answer is that they are virtually the same.”
If your child is motivated to learn, then he or she will do well. Period. And much of the time, the students that work hard are in Honors and AP courses and are thus not in class with students that don’t care a whit about learning. I work in a school that is ranked lower than Mtc is and the Honors and AP students would knock the socks off your little marsupial paws.
But, you doubt, you yearn for a school for your brilliant offspring that is ranked like GR or Millburn. I think you should consider a move sad, though, that would make me. Shop around, consumer, shop around. Or wait for the charter school!
I need to qualify my statements, though. Many students in the regular ol’ CP classes would also knock your socks off. And these are the students that do their homework, read their text books and are engaged in class.
If your child is motivated to learn, then he or she will do well. Period.
Really, tud? Environment doesn’t matter? Hey, I might as well move to Newark then.
We all think this and think that, but we have no evidence. You’re right about that.
A school, though, has an atmosphere. When that atmosphere is serious, when educators have expectations for students’ achievement and behavior, when there’s a feeling of belonging to something, it makes a difference. It’s easier for kids to focus and be serious when their peers are focused and serious. That’s why James Earle is trying to enforce a dress code at MHS. No more coming to class with your pants down around your knees and your boxer shorts hanging out.
Why would you think that kids in the remedial classes aren’t getting attention? In one AP biology class last year, one teacher taught 36 kids in the classroom–during labs they were six or seven to a microscope. You can’t cram 36 remedial kids into a class. They’re harder to teach. They often come with discipline problems. They take more resources, not fewer.
People in Montclair tell themselves many about the schools. Some of it is true, much of it is wishful thinking. But hey, what’s the difference? There’s no way to measure, no data, nothing objective. We can say what we like.
There is very little to be gained in a discussion on this topic with you, wally. That’s not to say you’re not bright or knowledgeable. Surely you seem to be. But you bring such a bias, such anger, to any discussion regarding public schooling that colors all of your posts on these matters.
Of course you can’t cram 36 remedial kids into a classroom. You really should not put 36 into an AP either, but if you do they’ll most likely be OK. In a year most of them will be in college classes with perhaps 100 in the room. The number in the room is not what dictates “attention”. It is the expectation. These kids are not expected to do well. They’re not pushed to do well. They’re on ice, and a good day is when they don’t punch someone out or sleep through the class. Actually, sleeping is OK because then they’re at least not “disruptive”. Listen to teachers talk about these kids. Listen to parents. Listen to other kids. More resources? Are you kidding? Do you think these kids get, on average, the type of teachers and attention that the AP kids get? Do you know a lot of high-performing teachers that can’t wait to go to Paterson or Newark? Financial incentives are offered to teachers to go to these high need schools. Why do you think that is?
There is plenty of data, and plenty of ways to quantify. But you would rather fixate, as you’ve done here often, on merit pay, tenure, and the rest of it. You have repeatedly scoffed at suggestions that teacher evaluations aren’t like widget manufacturer evaluations. Its too complicated, you’ve said. No one could possibly understand it. All of this delivered in a tone that makes it quite clear that, customer or no, you have very little idea what actually goes on in schools but plenty of anger at what you THINK takes place. Are you and your ilk interested in a system that REALLY assesses teacher effectiveness? That truly looks at needs? No. Easier to moan about teacher benefits and tenure.
And by the way, there are MANY teachers who are equally fixated on tangential issues, and are real stumbling blocks to improvement. They should go, period.
And no, I’m not a teacher, but I worked with many school districts and in a few universities and so have a pretty good handle on the “business”, if you will.
Yeah, we can say what we like. That’s all anyone, at the end of the day, does here. I think we can do better, but I’ll leave that to you young folks. I’ve done my bit.
Where in this thread did I bring up merit pay or tenure? Where did I bring up teachers? I didn’t, you did. It’s your fixation, not mine.
Who are you even arguing with above? “You and your ilk…” Who is that exactly? Who is the angry one here? Your words and sentences seem to make sense, but they don’t go in any particular direction. You are babbling.
Don’t worry about it, though, cro. I’m not particularly interested in understanding you. I can tolerate only so much arrogance and condescension, and we’ve exceeded that the limit by quite a lot.
Like any tentacle of government, there is an upper limit to what can be expected of our schools. The only thing that can raise a school above its natural “pretty OK” or “not causing gross injury to most students” cap is parental involvement.
You have trotted out your tired rants about tenure, merit pay, teacher evaluations, etc. countless times. You’ve suggested that special needs kids should be somehow winnowed out of the general population, so as to reduce costs. These are positions that YOU’VE taken, repeatedly. That you now feign puzzlement is disingenous, to say the least.
If you find me arrogant and condescending, OK. I’ll lose no sleep.
Watch that blood pressure, old man.
Well, walleroo, if you move to Newark, might I suggest shooting for Science Park HS?
Of course I think the environment matters in education. That’s the whole premise behind SES being the strongest predictor of educational outcomes. It seems to me that you feel that diversity comes at a cost and that cost is the quality of your children’s education. I suspect lots of people in this town fear this but you have the guts to say it (in a quasi-anonymous way, of course). Thirty-six kids in an AP class does seem pretty high* and I think you’re drawing the conclusion that the school is directing their attention and thus funding at the disadvantaged students instead of the AP students. If your child was in a school like Millburn, which is obviously more homogenous, then the funds would be distributed more evenly. So you have a hypothesis that the high-performing students at Millburn get a better education than the high-performing kids at MHS and you’re looking for some data to support your hunch. You’re not swayed by the data that is available that suggests otherwise, so I think you’re seeing everything through your “diversity is a crock” filter.
My children are young so I don’t have any direct experience with the MHS although I do have some experience with other high schools. Personally, I think that when parents evaluate the quality of their child’s education, they are swayed too much by school ranking. What should matter is the education your child is getting, not the test scores of the students that come from homes where there is little value placed on doing well in school. Is your child engaged and challenged and doing the work? Is the teacher passionate about the subject matter? Is the teacher assigning assessments that require higher order cognition like creativity and critical thinking as opposed to just recall of knowledge? Did your child do well on the AP exam? If not, then complain to the principal and BOE or move to Newark. Or Millburn. 🙂
*As a side note, there is little evidence that class size has a strong effect on educational outcomes unless the class size is reduced dramatically, i.e. 10-12 students per class.
From my experience (and that of my husband who’s a teacher), the kids and/or school districts that do well are the ones who have parents or guardians that take a genuine interest in their kids’ school, teachers, progress, etc. These are the parents that go to PTA meetings, meet with their kid’s teachers if there’s a problem, help their kids with their homework or get a tutor, etc. These kids are also usually involved in some sort of after-school activities (sports, music, drama, etc).
Money has very, very little to do with it.
God, I hate the smiley face, why did I use it? So corny.
MM, money has a lot to do with it when you’re talking about disadvantaged students. We obviously cannot go into the home and whip the parents into shape, so the school tries to provide the support services at school that aren’t provided at home. And that costs money.
The BP is fine, thanks. Blessed with good genes.
Besides, if I develop a tumor or some such, I know of a procedure that can laser it out without damaging the surrounding tissue.
Translation:
It’s not about the money until the kids aren’t doing well and then ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY – send more money!
Perhaps its time to acknowledge that schools cannot “make up” for a bad family life. Schools should not be social service centers, they should be schools.
Croi, his procedure only works on brain tumors.
There are no data comparing kids at particular schools in this way, Tudlow, that was my point. Correct me if I’m wrong, but everything we can say, about wealthier kids or those whose parents are involved etc, is in the aggregate. Nobody has analyzed (at least to my admittedly limited knowledge) the performance of wealthy white kids in lily-white, wealthy schools compared to wealthy kids in racially and/or socioeconomically diverse schools.
I’m not saying that the lower half at MHS gets a disproportionate share of resources (leaving aside the fortune we spend sending some special needs kids out of district, which is a separate issue of the unfunded Fed mandate). The best and worst kids may get screwed equally, for all I know. What I am questioning is the assumption among Montclair parents that sending your kid to a big, noisy, chaotic–but diverse–school like Montclair is better than sending him or her to Millburn or Glen Ridge, where the environment is more orderly, serious and conducive to learning.
If we are to believe that chaos and distraction are actually better for learning, which seems to me counter-intuitive, where’s the evidence?
MM, money has everything to do with whether those parents do the things you cited. You’re right, going to meetings, getting involved, etc. are definite aids to academic achievement. The kids whose parents do these things generally do better. But in order for parents to do these sorts of things, they have to have a belief in education and an ability to invest the time needed. That’s hard for many in less advantaged areas. Quite often, these are single-family homes where the mother (it is usually the mother) works at a low-paying job and often has younger children to look after. Tough to make time to go to evening conferences, or to stop what you’re doing with one or two or three other children in order to sit with another and monitor homework.
Some people do this, and the results are there to see. But it is harder to do. Not impossible. Harder.
So if you mean that money doesn’t matter in terms of spending IN the school, then you have a point. No amount of cash infusions into a poorly performing school can address the underlying problems. But if you are suggesting that the economic status of the family itself does not matter, then you are flying in the face of hundreds of studies and mountains of research that suggest the contrary.
” Tough to make time to go to evening conferences, or to stop what you’re doing with one or two or three other children in order to sit with another and monitor homework.”
Hogwash.
Spoken, as always, like someone who has never had to do it.
Oh wait. Now is when I’ll hear that you and your wife made all of the conferences, and always monitored homework. This even though you lived in a disadvantaged setting, had limited educations yourselves, and came from a background that did not stress the importance of education.
Right.
Again, ‘roo, what would you accept as “evidence”? I asked the question earlier, and it still hasn’t been answered.
Would you accept college acceptance rates? “Prestige” of the colleges that accept the graduates of these schools? Average incomes of graduates 10 years out of school?
How would you, or me, or anyone “prove” this?
I look at the list of colleges that accept MHS graduates each year and see all of the top schools in the country represented. If that’s your measure, MHS meets it.
If it is not, what is?
And I completely reject your suggestion that MHS is “chaos”. You need only go down the road a piece to Barringer if you want to see that.
Uh, my mom did not go to college. Not because she wasn’t bright enough but because her family grew up during the depression and could not afford it. She always made a point, however, to read to me and my brothers at bedtime. She started doing this when were were around 3 so that by the time we did start school, we were reading on our own.
I also remember volunteering her time to be a class mother. She and my dad went to parent-teacher meetings or somethimes the teachers would pay home visits. I know for a fact that they do have tutors who make home visits in Newark because one of my relatives is a math tutor there. This costs the taxpayers money but does not cost the recipient families a dime.
My mother did not go to college either, MM. Nor did my father. Nor did anyone in my family until I did. What, exactly, is your point?
Tutors make home visits when students are out of school for a specified number of days — due to suspensions, illness, and the like. They do not just “come over” to any and all at no cost. If they did, why would anyone go to school at all?
You had 2 parents, apparently. I’m assuming that while you may not have been wealthy, neither were you living below the poverty line, and the language spoken in your home was undoubtedly English.
How is your experience relevant to that lived by those who do not have your, or my, good fortune?
“Tutors make home visits when students are out of school for a specified number of days — due to suspensions, illness, and the like.”
Yes, and if you happen get pregnant when you’re 11. I am not being facetious, this is a true story.
Yes, English was spoken in my home but what’s your point? They have Spanish-speaking staffers these days. 2+2=4 is the same in any language.
My point is that mom (and dad) made time for us because she believed it was important. It doesn’t cost anything to read to your kids at bedtime.
Besides, at 20+K a student, a home visit is chump change.
I was in class/meetings all day yesterday and checked in and swore this was an old thread from about a year or two ago… I even looked for my usual comments as it relates to Montclair and education.
Sad this the same argument we always seem to have.
That said, cro you make some very good points, but I think you don’t put enough on the parents of kids. Your comment about a single mom… work… while certainly true, is typical. I remember a young prof alone with his single mom who I don’t think went to many (if any) conferences (unless I was in trouble). She also was not around much because she was working. Sounds familiar.
The difference is that my neighborhood and culture told the young prof to behave and do well (enough) in school.
I usually hate bringing person experiences into issues, but sometimes they are instructive. Here, my belief that family, culture and community are the determining factor in student success was made.
So until the current cycle of broken families and culture is changed, Black kids (really, poor kids) will never do well.
Add to that the idea that doing well to be a credit to your race has no meaning and you have what we have.
(Funny, just as I wrote this I realized Stevie Wonder’s “Living for the City” was playing. Odd….)
Being pregnant at 11 would mean, in all liklihood, that the student has a medical excuse from school. Hence, the tutoring. Would you rather that the child receive no instruction during the year? Of course it happens. That’s what the tutors are for, to see to it that children excluded from school for medical, discipline, etc. reasons are covered. That is state law, by the way. In fact, it is federal law. And it should be.
Do you really think that teaching 2+2=4 to a kid who does not speak English well is just the same as teaching it to a kid who grew up speaking the language? Do you think there are no accomodations or differentiation that should be made? Just put it out there and if they don’t get, T.S. Eliot.
I’m glad that your folks made time for you, and that they felt education was important. Mine did too. But for many of these kids, that is not the case. So what happens to them? Your “my mom did it so theirs can too” is not only irrelevant, its absurd as well.
Prof, like you my family and culture stressed education. There could be no bigger disaster for the young croi than a note home from school. I also knew that it was the only vehicle for me to get out of the town I was in, and I wanted out in a big way. I could not agree more with you with regard to culture, family, and community being the biggest factors for academic success.
I’m wondering why my daughter’s elementary school teaches beginner spanish to kids that are fluent in spanish. The schools haven’t quite figured out what to do with so many native spanish speakers.
Maybe for the same reason that they teach your English-speaking daughter “English”.
So that students can understand the form and structure, and learn to properly construct sentences and the like, in a language that heretofore they only knew through listening to their parents.
Probably for the same reason, Bebop, that English should be taught to most native English speaking children.
I remember most of the “spanish kids” (as they were all called then) in my school were terrible in spanish class. Mrs. Goldstein or Mr. Decker would comment, we have to teach you the CORRECT way to speak.
Ignorance is not bliss. It’s just ignorance. The biases some people have….oy.
Though not, apparently, to learn not to split infinitives.
If the kids were learning spanish grammar, I agree. But in 2nd grade they are learning to say hello and my name is XYZ. This is good for the native english speakers but for kids who speak spanish at home, they are bored stiff.
There’s a mismatch of needs. Ideally, you’d have a spanish for spanish speakers class and spanish class for the english speakers. I’m all for learning spanish at school but there needs to be a better strategy for how it’s taught.
Again, ‘roo, what would you accept as “evidence”?… How would you, or me, or anyone “prove” this?
That’s my point, there is no evidence one way or the other.
Spoken, as always, like someone who has never had to do it.
What exactly do you know, cro, what ROC has or hasn’t had to do?
Precisely nothing.
You would be hard put, mr. mitty, to find many modern linguists who condemn split infinitives in English.
They’ve accepted, you see, the fact that the language was designed “to easily adapt” to common-sense usage.
What exactly do YOU know, ‘roo, about what I do or don’t know about ROC?
Precisely nothing.
No again, ‘roo. There IS a great deal of evidence. You, or anyone really, simply has to identify what they will accept as evidence. They have to define “success” in terms of an education, and then determine if that standard has been met.
You have already determined that MHS is “chaos”. How did you arrive at this determination? What is your evidence? Your proof?
And if there is indeed no way to measure success or effectiveness, why do you continually call for teachers to be better evaluated so that bad ones can be dismissed? Where would your “evidence” be in making these employment decisions? If there is no evidence one way or the other, as you’ve said, what is all of the hullabaloo about?
Seems kind of obvious that the educational “bang” for the tax dollar “buck” would be in Millburn. No?
No, it doesn’t seem obvious to me at all.
Why is it for you? Because a monthly magazine named them #1?
Well it does seem that they did a fair amount of research into this subject. If you are paying $20k in taxes in either town,wouldn’t you send your child to the school with the higher achievement scores?
I guess I would if I wanted to move every year or so.
Millburn, Mountain Lakes, McNair Academy, Glen Ridge, Bernards, Mendham — they’ve all been #1 or #2 at one point over the past few years. So am I to believe that a school that was #1 last year and is now #7 just got worse, or that a #8 that moved to #2 is that much better than it was last year? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
Their rankings are fine as far as they go, but ranking schools in general is a concept I don’t accept. US NEWS tells us every year that certain colleges or universities are “better” than others, and their lists carry a great deal of weight. To me, its laughable that Princeton is better than Harvard or Brandeis or Stanford or Michigan.
There are some high schools in NJ that are dreary places — unsafe, populated by disaffected students and administered by incompetents. Millburn is certainly not one of those. Neither is Montclair. So for my 20K I’ll choose a town that meets all or most of my needs, and has a school system that will reinforce and build on the start that I gave my kids.Maybe I’ll be influenced by size. Maybe my kids will opportunities to participate in activities at a small school that they would not at a big one. Or, maybe they will get a chance to study something at a big school that is unavailable at a small one. These are personal decisions that will not be determined by a magazine ranking.
Uh huh. There’s tons of evidence, but first you want to know what I will accept. You sound like you’re peddling cheap watches. The obvious question to ask is, “Whaddaya got?” But I won’t ask it, because if you had something you would have said so by now.
I don’t even think you would understand what evidence is, cro. You show a limited ability to actually think about the arguments people are making here. You just burp, and I’m getting sick of the smell of bile.
What a lovely way with words you demonstrate, ‘roo. The result, no doubt, of a superior education.
You are all over the place once again, as is your wont. You bemoan lack of accountability, then shrug and say there is no evidence anyway. You decry the “chaos” at the high school while offering nothing to support such a description. You really are somewhat of a caricature, I’m afraid.
I’m not the one who makes these sort of claims re: the superiority of one school or one class of students over another, therefore the burden of “proof” is not on me. Its on you, but as usual you are able to do little more than fulminate and deflect.
Please feel free to ignore my “bile” in future if you so desire. It really matters not a whit to me.
The best school is Hard Knocks. None of them can teach ambition, hard work or kindness. Some of the best ‘educated’ are our nation’s worst people.
Put your child somewhere safe and guide them as best you can. You don’t have to be well heeled or pay 20kt taxes for that.
I am delighted always to see discussions about education. Generally croi you’ve made excellent points. You’ve indicated that you have some knowledge of the inner workings of the classroom. Maybe! It’s hard for me not to wonder in what capacity.
The public system at times is wasteful, slow to implement valid research and often the “factory model system” appears to have a life of it’s own and certainly does not reach all students. Parents have just reasons to question tenure, pensions, teacher evaluations etc.
Most teachers (the bell shaped curve regarding the “magic makers” and intellectually gifted teachers exists for all staff members in all schools) will produce Millburn’s results. I had a conversation not to long ago with a Millburn parent. Her child is in the HS and receives special ed services. The parent truly believed that she had discovered a most unusual teacher who actually wanted to teach these IEP kids. My sense of most educators is that they are in a profession that gives them great satisfaction and truly want to be the best that they can be for their students.
Teachers are easy targets. I’d suggest a closer look at administration and BoE.
Buuuuuuurp!
Well, things have turned rather nasty here, haven’t they? I sometimes wonder what the point of these conversations are–it’s the same ol’ people saying the same ol’ things and invariably getting pissed at one another. People’s minds are already made up and no amount of data or reasoning will change anybody’s opinion. That’s my opinion.
‘roo, the closest I have seen to a breakdown like you want is the NCLB data on the NJDOE website. You’ve seen it, no? It doesn’t break it down by income, but you can look at HSPA scores by race. For instance, Millburn had 97.4% of its students at proficient/advanced proficient vs MHS’s 96%. You can certainly find the n and see if there is a statistically significance difference but there are obviously many factors that aren’t controlled for, such as the income of the students’ parents. Interestingly, Millburn didn’t report on African-Americans and economically disadvantaged students because, well, they’re weren’t any. (Well, less than 40 so maybe there’s a few).
Regarding your other statements, you state that chaos and distraction are the norm at MHS and the other schools are calm and orderly. Do you have evidence to support that chaos dominates in the classrooms at the high school? I’d be interested to hear it. I really would. (No sarcasm here, I swear.)
Your other assumption is that small is better. Well, you didn’t specifically say that, but you seemed to insinuate that big is bad because it’s noisy and chaotic and not conducive to learning. Do you have evidence to support that? Here in an article that states otherwise:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/education/28school.html
Re: spending more money in high poverty districts, there is evidence that Abbott school districts have benefitted from the additional funding. I just don’t get why people acknowledge that it’s all about the family, the family is broken blah blah blah and then just stop there because spending more money in these school districts will not fix the families. Well, doh, who said it would? The extra money at the districts is supposed to provide the students with the attention re: their education that they are not getting at home for whatever reason. And like I said, there is evidence that it is working but I will not argue that the money needs to be spent more efficiently and there are plenty of people looking at the most effective way to use the money. If one really wants to learn something from people who possess some expertise on the subject as opposed to people who are just pissed off that their tax dollars are going to poor kids who still don’t perform at the level they find appropriate, you can take an hour and listen to these presentations:
https://blip.tv/file/2856585?filename=Tcweb-AbbottVBurkeHasTheLandmarkSchoolFundingCaseImprovedStu277.flv
(I know, I know, who has an hour but it’s really interesting stuff. And I’m sorry I’m not embedding the links but I’m too tired and lazy today.)
Re: schools, NJ is the third most segregated in the country. Wow. From what I have read and from the people I have spoken to, I think MHS is doing a pretty good job as one of the few schools that is not segregated. And I’ve been happy with the elementary schools so far. NJ has the highest graduation rates for Blacks in the nation. I think that’s something to be proud of. I also am pretty impressed with MHS when I see what colleges/universities the seniors are attending. I’m done, my kids need some parental involvement. ‘night all.
We classify and segregate the special ed population too. Bolts of lightening have reached Trenton and districts are scurrying to bring the students back to their home schools. This alone will be a major cost savings event when it takes place.
Thanks for the links, tudlow. I will look at them when I’ve a spare moment.
Try won’t you, both you and Dag, to look past our dyspeptic friend. Its been apparent that, when at a loss, he generally becomes sarcastic or childish. Here, he’s managed to be both.
Dag, I worked with schools, both public and private, for many years offering mental health services. That’s one of the reasons I’m not put out by ‘roo’s nonsense — its diagnostic of larger issues, after all. I’m sure that he’s really a very nice man down deep. Like, Chilean mine deep.
I agree that most teachers want to do the right thing. When they don’t, it often is the result of a lack of support from administrators or parents or both. I’ve seen many wonderful teachers, full of good ideas and eager to implement them, become bogged down in regs and protocols that stifle initiative and punish creativity. Squashed or even hounded from the profession by vindictive and agenda-driven BOE members. And you’re right, teachers are easy targets. I always laugh when I see commercials featuring lawyers or bond salesmen nearing retirement and saying that now, they’d like to teach. As if it is a profession that just anyone could do. Sort of like my showing up at the courthouse tomorrow to try a case because, after all, I watch LAW AND ORDER all of the time and I know I could do it too!
Though not, apparently, to learn not to split infinitives.
Splitting infinitives is perfectly fine! This ain’t Latin.
There are data out there, Tud, but what do they show? I read that Times story when it came out. Interesting experiment. A big school can certainly get good results, as the Mass school shows. I’m not sure what that says about big socioeconomically diverse schools in general or Montclair in particular. The HSPA scores paint with a pretty broad brush, and as you say don’t even break out SES. Alas, the evidence I have, such as it is, is entirely anecdotal, but compelling nonetheless. That’s a story for another time and place, however.
Well, walleroo, there is really nothing I can provide you with since you already are aware of the quantitative data, or the lack thereof, and you have some qualitative data that perhaps should not be shared here. We’re back at the beginning I suppose, but it was an interesting chat.
No, it wasn’t interesting, it was regrettable, but thanks for trying to put a positive spin on it.
brucht.
Listen, as the holder of the current Featured Comment on the Baristanet Homepage, I feel like I’m in the unique position to comment here….
Really, this does mirror far too many discussions we had. To that, I’ll add the OTHER point I usually bring up and add support to cro who understands that rankings are only to get folks all wee-wee’d up.
You cannot look at these rankings and compare them to Montclair as the racial makeup of Montclair makes it impossible. According to American Factfinder, Millburn is 1.1% Black. And since Blacks score lower (even middle class Black kids) than White kids, you will rarely find a regular public school with a sizable Black population on those rankings.
So I usually go with “where do MHS graduates go after graduation?” Every year, we send PLENTY of kids off to elite/great/fine Colleges and Universities. And PLENTY don’t do much else after graduation. One of my very CLOSE teacher friends laughs when she looks in the Montclair Times because sometimes, in the same issue, there is a former student getting an award at a great College, and another in the police blotter.
And they were in the same class.
My problem with the HS is the Principal’s inability to speak and write in proper English… Remember his response to the “police activity” about a year ago? He doesn’t impress me at all.
Well said, prof. If only I would have said something similar, like, maybe two days ago.
Eructate.
And by the way, scientists were pretty pissy about our previous leader. But congrats on getting featured comment. Woot woot!
Prof….Welcome to you! As a new member to the Featured Comments Club the FCC will be sending you a letter with your dues enclosed for the first year, although it’s a lot cheaper to check the three year box….CC, check or PayPal is accepted….If you choose to use cash then leave it in an unmarked envelope behind the loose brick on the Rooster mural in Lower Montclair…..PAZ, class of 10-2010.
Now why you gotta hate on me, Tud?
Listen, this is DAY TWO of me being the featured comment (in truth, I’m hard at word on another that I KNOW will also be featured) so I’ll just take your comment as just, well, small talk from a small person. (Understand, I view most as small- so you’re in good company.)
No sweat. The air is so thin up here on my hill in the upper floor of my Palatial Estate in UPPER Montclair, I just laugh at the little folks as I let my personal baker in (fresh blueberry scones every Sunday!).
I would invite you over, but there’s a dress code.
I’m still smarting that I wasn’t clever enough to outdo Martha’s ‘wonton’ comment on the sideswiped chinese restaurant entry. If I only could have figured out how to use moo goo gai pan into a comment I know I could have been a featured comment.
Hats off to you prof. Btw, I love blueberry scones and I have a bow tie to wear, will you let me slip in the help’s entryway for a taste?
A bow tie: Certainly! (It goes without saying it must be a real tie, not a pre-tied, clip on. If you need help with tying it, let me know.
Funny, (this is real) I was shopping for an Ascot- the prof has decided to dress a wee bit more dapper, better to signify his place in the world.
Bloomies? Macy’s? Ah, no both had fools who had to be told what an ascot was.
I’ll head of to the Plaza or Riverside Square to Neiman-Marcus or Nordstrom (where I should have went first), hopefully, they might have an idea.
If not, it’s off to Barney’s.
Just playful little jabs, prof. Jab-jab, jab.
I’m crestfallen that I am no longer welcome to your house for some of your delicious grub. And I have the perfect dress for scones.
Nice to see everyone playing nice together again.
Love the comment Prof. Since I’m a member of the featured comment club too I’ve decided I like the comments rather than the old thumbs up/down.
Tudlow I’ll pop on my red hat and we can together stroll Upper Monclair with some clotted cream. Maybe he’ll take pity on us.
Poor Blue Wavers…Hoiw long before a car crashes into their headquarters?
Prof,
You might need to order online to actually get an ascot (or go to Crookhorn’s in Montclair for some old-style service):
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=node%3D1040658&field-keywords=ascot&x=0&y=0
An ascot…isn’t that a place to rest your ass?
Prof, certainly a man of your stature deserves custom made attire. Might I suggest D.L. Cerney’s in the East Village.
https://nymag.com/listings/stores/dl_cerney/
OMG bebobgun Do Hush Puppies really still exist. I’m going to stop by that shop the next time I’m in the village.
Remember though bebopgun, I’m a Union guy and rep, so I’m with “the people.” Because of that, it’s off the rack for me.
Likewise, the thought of purchasing an ascot via Amazon is just wrong.
That said, I must be open and allow myself to experience the world as others do.
Oh, Dag, that sounds delightful! I’ll counter your red hat with my really hip camouflage birding hat.
https://roibotaq.amplify.com/2010/07/12/camouflage-hat-for-birding/
Crookhorn’s is a lovely place. I especially like the Vineyard Vines shirts on my hubband.
Is it possible to get a union made ascot?
Congratulations, prof, on your comment being called out. And what a comment it is–a rambling, freeform tribute to the prof’s unique worldview. Where would we be without you? (Please, no answers.)
An ascot sounds like a great idea. Maybe it will inspire me to get a pouch piercing.
Piercings??
Dear Lord…
They (and tattoos) are SO 2008. To that, there will be a generation of pierced and tattooed folks who resemble those still running around in tie-dye– How dated and sad.
Fortunately, the preppy look is on it’s way, and save for a discreet marking here and there, we can look forward to clean looking children in plaids and argyle.
This I’d rather than a “Situation” or “Snookie” wannabe.
Okay, then, I’ll get a buzz cut.
Penny loafers, izods and up-turned collars? No, please no. I think they were added to the Geneva Convention on torture and banned.
DAY THREE of the prof being the featured comment!!!
BOW DOWN!!
Prof, you prolly could’ve found an ascot at the Olympic shop.
(still a little sad about its demise…)
Or I could get the name of the company that comes to my pal’s boss’ house to custom-make her clothes. (Blouses, only $1,000 apiece!) Not a local seamstress either; some kinda conglomerate. …. That’s just beyond the reach of this average person’s imagination. I didn’t even spend that on my wedding dress! Heck, just one of those blouses costs more than my first car! (the bad economy only hits some of us, I suppose.)
p.s. I love scones…
To some extent, we are very lucky as things are much worse, in many ways, in many other places. I moved here from the west coast, and I was surprised at how progressive New Jersey is. That said, we clearly have a lot of problems here too. We all should realize that we have, so far, escaped the worst of the (ha) “recession”, but that can’t last. My hunch is that this “recession” is permanent. The middle class is in danger..if we don’t change things, in ten years, there wont be a middle class, seriously.
I was very, very disappointed that the Democrats wimped out on healthcare. The only way to avoid the hell that healthcare is becoming is to do what Canada has done, eliminate insurance for medical care, or better yet, what England has done they have put ALL doctors on salaries..
Make no mistake about it, both parties are basically the same when it comes to avoiding this issue.. They are just playing good cop, bad cop,
No wonder the Dems put their mandated underinsurance years into the future, I’m sure a lot of them are quietly rejoicing that they lost the House in this election..
Its like we increasingly have the “Dumb and Dumber” political system..
There, I said it..
I bet that “health insurance” for municipal employees is a huge part of rising taxes. If we had a real national healthcare system, we would have the stability they have in other nations, but here, the cost goes up 20, 30, 40% each year, until everything breaks..
And, although you are paying more, you get worse and worse healthcare..
Cures? With “patient retention” such a major concern of doctors, I wouldn’t count on being cured of anything, ever. Didn’t Obama claim that it was the “only healthy section of the economy”?
Your money or your life! I am not endorsing this idea.. not in any way, but I do think that when they make healthcare mandatory and dont pay for it oout of taxes, people will have a legitimate beef because it still wont be available to many people because of the cost. Especially older people. What good does it do to say that now you can buy healthcare you can’t afford. That ISN’T universal healthcare.
Universal healthcare is when you go to the hospital and they won’t take your money, on principle..
“we wouldn’t have any place to put it”
That’s what I was told…